Brian63

I used to be an evangelical atheist, but I have changed my tune over time. I used to believe that the world would be a much grander place without religion and if everyone was an atheist, but since then I have changed my opinion, and I realize that there are merits to having religion in society (even if all religions are false).

My primary concern now is not to convert others to atheism, but to help clear up many of the most common misconceptions the general public has about atheism (that it is a religion, that atheists are just angry at God, etc.). It is important, I believe, for people to make decisions based on good information, and a lot of the viewpoints that people hold about atheism are based on extremely poor information (misinformation).

The only real need to evangelize that I see now is to "convert" people out of creationism/intelligent design and to get people to want to preserve a strong separation of church and state. When people want creationism/ID or their religious viewpoints endorsed by government, that is going way too far.

The only danger that I see from religion now is when it is taken to extremes, either in the cases I mention in the previous paragraph or when it compels people to do very harmful things, like fly planes into buildings. More liberally religious people are not likely to do any of these harmful things, but it is the more fundamental ones that do pose a threat.

There are some atheists that are evangelists though:

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/temy_beal/just_another_belief.html" target="_blank">Temy Beal</a> is a self-described "gnostic atheist evangelist." He says, "I mean by that, that I know, not merely believe, that there is no God and I preach that gospel."

Brian

Typhon

Hello David Mathews,

You suspect? Based on what evidence, if you would be so kind? Remember, we like claims to be supported around these parts. We get enough of the airy, empty sort on an unfortunately all too regular of a basis, sigh.

I'm an atheist, and I've never encountered such a thing. Of course, I've never discovered the big evil atheist conspiracy either, so perhaps I'm just considered an apostate atheist and not worthy of the secret decoder ring...

Again, anything is possible, but not every thing is probable. There could be I suppose, but I remain highly suspect that they make up any sizable majority or even minority of atheists, shrug.

Well, I just did I suppose. If you have any credible evidence for these possibilities, and their actuality in the sphere of typical atheism, I'd be happy to review it.

Cheers,

.T.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

The AntiChris

Yup. I do.

Temy Beal's speech sums up my feelings perfectly.

People here seem to consistently underestimate the insidious nature of religious indoctrination in western society. I'm not talking about overt religious propaganda, just the fact that the overwhelming consensus in politics and the media is one of assumed religious belief. Far from "lack of belief" being the default, in the real world, it is the atheist who finds he has to justify his position rather than the theist.

Whilst I can understand that many atheists wish to avoid the appearance of being rude or unethical, toleration and respect for religious opinions, while superficially appearing to be reasonable, merely perpetuate the status quo.

Chris

Queen of Swords

Bump.

brighid

Dave,

Are atheists evangelical? When I say "evangelical" I am speaking about actively seeking converts. Do atheists actively seek to convert Christians and theists to atheism?

I suppose, within the extremely diverse make up of atheists that some are evangelical. However, the simple lack of belief in God(s) makes no mandate for an atheist of any sort to go out and spread the “Good Word.” I engage in debate with different types of people from varying backgrounds on a regular basis. I do my best to present a reasoned, rational explanation for my lack of belief in God(s). I also do my best to respect the various faiths of those who are members of my family and my friends. I ask questions about why they believe as they do if the subject comes up, but 9 times out of 10 I will not bring up the subject of religion because I hold a minority point of view, the lack of understanding of a perspective audience, the prejudice atheists endure and the divisive nature of lacking a belief in a God(s.)

I feel it is unethical to evangelize with the express intent of converting others. I will educate those who seek out that information, but I am not on a mission to bring anyone or any segment of society over to my way of thinking.
It would be untruthful to say that I don’t think the world might be a better place if religion ceased to exist as we know it today, but I am also realistic and understand this is unlikely. I highly value freedom of thought, and because I place high esteem on freedom I work to protect the freedoms of others, even those who disagree with me as I do not want to take the bitter pill of my own creation some day by denying another freedom of thought and conscience. As an atheist, I will be on the front lines defending religious freedom for ALL people even those who demonize me because I don’t believe in their particular version of a specific God.

If that is the case, exactly what does atheism offer the convert to atheism?

It offers intellectual integrity and freedom, something Christianity cannot offer upon deep examination and application to the real world, at least in my opinion. It offers one the opportunity to see people as human beings and not as sinners, of this type of theist or that type of theist and thereby dehumanizing them for lack of particular belief. Although most of us have very serious problems with theism and certain theists we value their humanity and respect their existence as we wish to be respected. More often then not we find ourselves in a precarious situation by having to defend our basic worth as people, or the hideous misnomers that were are Satan worshippers, baby killers, simply rebelling against God but know full well He/She/It/They exist and act like petulant children, that we should move to another country, or we are not deserving of life because of our lack of belief. Therefore, we are sometimes reactionary and often express ourselves passionately.

Please understand that there is ONLY ONE thing atheists have in common and that is our lack of belief in God(s) and nothing more and nothing less. Some of us have other common experiences, view points, morals and theories but in general we do not wish to be confined to a specific label because we are aware that with an increase in knowledge we will redefine our nature, morals, experience and view points. We are a diverse group and cannot be lumped together as all believing in this moral system, adhering to that type of worldview, or having anything beyond a personal set of “dogmas” individual to each person, or none at all. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief in God(s) and the sooner you make this clear demarcation in your thinking the sooner you will be able to understand that atheism is not, cannot and will never be a “religion.”

Please do not attempt to place us in your neat and tiny, little boxes or stereotype us because we fail to believe in your God and all the other Gods you don’t believe in, for it is an utter waste of time and will avail you of no actual truth.

As far as parenting goes I do not indoctrinate my son into anything. We discuss things openly and although I do not see Christianity as being a positive path I do my very best at presenting balance to my child on all topics. He has attended different churches, he has read bible stories and he has a positive viewpoint about religious people. I do my best to instill the ideal that he should judge people by the content of their character and not prejudicial things such as belief, race, gender, creed, sexual orientation, etc. He has also been exposed to other faiths such as Bahai, Judaism, Paganism, Buddhism and Taoism. I have really had the opportunity to expose him much to Hinduism or Islam, but we live in a very diverse community and the opportunity will present itself. I (we) teach him the values of love, honesty, integrity, personal responsibility, tolerance, empathy, charity and compassion and my son expresses these qualities often. He is an articulate, well mannered and respectful child. Parents of other children welcome him into their home and always comment about how well behaved and kind he is. He is always welcomed back.

I was a bit disturbed by your comment that an atheistic religious system MIGHT contain some morals. A lack of belief in God(s) does not logically or factually equate to a lack of morals. My experience is the exact opposite, but the people I choose to include in my closest circle of friends share the same moral values I do and they come from many different religious and irreligious backgrounds. I have long admired a woman I came to know through my son and our experience in the martial arts. I knew her for years before I ever knew she was an atheist. I respected her for her strength, confidence, complete devotion to her marriage and family, the examples of her children being kind, thoughtful, respectful, well mannered, etc., her intelligence and the strength of her marriage. She and her husband were together for 10 years prior to marriage and have been married for 15 years now. Over time we became close friends and still remain so today. She has long been, well sort of a mentor. She is an outstanding and active citizen, constantly working to improve the quality and safety of her children’s school district. I aspire to her greatness.
Atheists are people, humans deserving of the same dignity and respect as all other human beings. We love, laugh, cry, experience sorrow, pain, loss, triumph, joy, etc. We have similar hopes and dreams as most other people and as parents we love our children no less then a theist. I hope that your time spent here will help relieve you of some of the ill informed notions you have about atheists. I appreciate your balanced dialogue and I hope our discussions are fruitful.

Brighid

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

WJ

Hi David!

I think once again you will see alot of people postulating politics and semantics as used here in answering your question. To that end, two thoughts:

1. I think the so-called proper 'term' is atheist 'dogma' as apposed to 'religion' or religious dogma. To me though, it's just a play on words.
2. No matter how much the 'atheist' plays with words, their 'position' about the non-existence of God is simply a belief [system].

I do however have a few more questions regarding the appropriateness/inappropriateness of selling God. In your view, how should say, Christian's approach the marketing of God? My feeling has been if one is gifted with the ability to minister and share their experiences/knowledge to and with the masses, how does one balance the 'temptation' of putting 'notches in one's belt' as to converting or convincing one to abandon one belief for or over another?

To that end, I always thought that the atheist should simply say something like 'god has no meaning to me' and walk away, viz. the evangelist or theist, as apposed to arguing a something that is believed [by them] not to exist. Arguing the non-existence of God only lessens their credibility as having such 'absolute belief' for which atheism seems to hold claim. Aside from all the weak/strong atheism justification baloney, 'agnosticism' seems more consistent with legitimate exploration of the arguments for such (non)existence of God. So I do see your salient point about what it means (or what shall/should it mean)to hold a belief about, in this instance, the non-existence of a God. I think you've shared this similar concern in some of your other thread's too.

Thoughts?

Walrus

brighid

Why on Earth should an atheist say, “God has no meaning to me” and simply walk away? Perhaps it may make theists more comfortable in their cognitive dissonance? Remember Walrus, you are in the house of the Infidel and in our house we can about anything we wish without having to justify it. Atheism claims NO absolute truth, meaning an unalterable position but it claims that it lacks a belief in any of the myriad of Gods thus far put forth by man kind and if and when some credible evidence is presented the atheist will examine it and determine it’s value and whether or not this ONE could actually be a GOD or THEE God! We simply add one (or three) more to the mix then the monotheist does. How dishonest of us! Have you NOT beaten this dead horse enough in other threads? For crying out loud! Now please, repeat after me until this has completely sunk in: Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief in God(s) … Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief in God(s) … Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief in God(s) …. It is NOT another “belief” system … It is NOT another religion … It is NOT another belief system … It is NOT another religion …

b

Jamie_L

If you want to talk about playing with words, anything can be a "belief". But there is a distinction between beliefs based on reliable evidence and rational thought and beliefs based on blind faith.

I believe that if I hold my keyboard in the air and let go, it will fall. This is not the same as believing in supernatural beings. I have a great deal of experience and evidence to suggest that gravity works. I have nothing but the say-so of people with illogical and conflicting religious claims that anything supernatural exists.

Jamie

Autonemesis

By the same token, no matter how much the aphilatelist plays with words, their position about not collecting stamps is simply a hobby.

Right?

scombrid

I see an assertion but where's the evidence. Evidence I'd like to see: Produce the atheist dogma, ethics, and general worldview to which one must conform in order to be considered an atheist.

I get the feeling here that your hinting at the liberal/atheist agenda that I keep hearing about from prominent Christians whenever a government establishment of religion is challenged. I've heard from several commentators and spam emails that atheists are manipulating the government for their agenda. To my knowledge there isn't any agenda beyond maintaining our liberty. Of course I'm usually out of the loop so I'm probably just missing something.


As for whether or not we evangelize, I've never seen an atheist handing out tracts. A guest at a Mardis Gras party last winter handed out chick tracts, <a href="http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0099/0099_01.asp" target="_blank">this one actually</a>. I've never had an atheist leave paraphanalia on my doorstep. Shoot, I completed my deconversion because bombardment with fundamentalist dogma forced me to critically analyze faith and dogma and guess where it led? I wasn't recruited to an atheist viewpoint. Atheist is what happened when I realized that I didn't believe anymore. I don't try to make others into atheists, but I will argue my viewpoint if challenged. I have handed out an atheist tract before but that was just petty retribution to someone that had been rather obnoxious in trying to get me to see the light. I only wanted to make them angry, I really didn't care what effect it had on their faith.