Seraphim

Is it me or the Year is starting a bit Weird ...?

Herbert Von Karajan

Sorry to keep you waiting...let's get back on our discussion. (Let's throw the question whether I'm Corgie in disguise or not into the backlog)


My reply : If I don't go to hell for sake of others, Who will?
There are others in the East who rely on Buddhism to live a proper life and they have no Internet (even TV in some region) to voice their opinions.

Seraphim, I find this quite puzzling. I read that you live your life for yourself, why do you defend Buddhism for others?

Don’t underestimate hell, my friend. Do not talk as if martrydom will render your pain, noble. Utter childish if you ask me.

If you think USA is very religious, then you should try living in the East where customs and religious belief (and some beliefs which has nothing to do with religion) attend to get mixed with your daily lives.

Let’s analyze...the West you described is extremely skeptical (Europe and U.S is getting secular in their beliefs), and I agree with you most of the part that their search for spirituality is futile because they pose too many demands on their mindset. These desires come from too much skepticism. The East is much more composed with their beliefs, they have much greater purpose if they're not tainted by negative Western thinking (hence, undiluted East). This comes from one source; loyalty.

But..."loyalty" itself can also be mislead by just about anyone who can successfully lead them...because they do not possess skeptical attitude. You get Muslim extremists killing "heathens" and "infidels" because they're brainwashed by fundamental Islam from square one. Another is their dependence of superstitions and blind obedience. Daughters submit to their parents and marry anonymous husbands. Sons have their careers dictated by parents and have no ambition on their own. That is how I view spirituality and culture in the East. All for the sake of religion, honor, family and no room for self. Not to lambast the East, but I think both sides are not superior either way. There are good fruits to be sown and bad seeds to be discarded.

Many people on this board when they turned away from religion, lost family, jobs, their whole lives. Just because they didn't think that they were on the right path and turned away. It takes a lot of self-discipline; determination and Inner strength to turn away from something you have known your whole life.

My reply : Wrong, it doesn't take a lot of things to turn you into a coward and run.
They should have explained to their family and friends that they don't couldn't find answers to their questions in life and wish to find it on their own. IF his/her family and friends love him/her, they would have accepted his/her wishes and allow them to try and find their own ways. Those who force others to accept their beliefs are ones who don't have strong beliefs themselves and they see others with lack of belief to be a mirror image of themselves. No one likes to see themselves in the mirror.

No, no Seraphim, that won’t do. There is no way every decision to persevere will eventually meet it’s happy ending. Only a God can achieve that. “Do not judge lest ye be judged”. Have you become a Christian from Communist China and you have nails torn off from your flesh and militants systematically rape you day and night? If not “cowardice”, the end is waste and empty achievement. Unless you tell me you've bear more and you triumph everytime you do so.

Sounds to me like Buddha’s experience turning away from his riches, family and Hinduism. Many atheist then turn to experimenting with all sorts of spiritual practices and other non-theistic religions, new atheists usually to do a lot of research and studying trying to find answers. Doesn't this sound like the Buddha, when he experimented with many types of practices?

My reply : Gautama went out to find answers and he returned to his family after becoming a Buddha (long enough to teach his family what he found out). It was Hindu monks who taught him about meditation and the path on which he started his journey. Noone born with knowledge to meditate.

Gautama did have chance to embrace Hinduism, but he rejected it. Don't you have to call him...coward?


My reply : Why don't you read through someone of the threads here and tell me what you think Atheists are?

Many turn away from Christianity and decided to become atheists. This is good and bad. One, they’ve decided what they want to believe. The bad; Many also are close-minded to teachings of other religions because they dismiss them superficially. You decide.

Again, many atheists here have logic and science as their Bibles. That means they’re fixed in their beliefs. Although that may not appeal to you.

My reply : And WHAT is Enlightenment?
Being sarcastic and obnoxious is my nature, it helps me calm the raging anger without resorting to doing something I attend to regret later.

Enlightenment in my definition is not Buddhist. It simply means you know the path to happiness in which others do not know. About your attitude, I am not qualified to judge.

My reply : Sake of Happiness? Of ALL? You're trying to make me laugh?
There is no Happiness of (for) ALL. What makes you happy most likely will not make others happy as well, simply because you are individual person (just like everyone else).
"If you wish to be Happy, then BE Happy".

Oh, pardon my pun. Then isn't Mahatma Gandhi was just a pathetic clown for fighting for independence of India? I wouldn't be surprised those pilots who screwed WTC were happy according to "If you wish to be Happy, then BE Happy"

I sound too naive here, but how do you define my definition of "Happiness for all"?

My reply : Wrong. Hitler asked himself "Why am I suffering?" and instead of looking at his own unachievable desire and needs, saw Jews as the reason for his suffering.
Brave men don't blame others for his failure, he blames himself. Blaming others is an act of stupidity.

Then, what an erroneous example I suppose. No, no it is irrelevant. He did ponder his purpose, no? Whether blaming others is cowardly or not is irrelevant to my point.

As for you ... try being good to yourselves first. People who are trying to do good for others attend to lose their ways easily upon facing failures in size of the Great Wall (of China). Don't be like a Kite or a Fishing string, you could break half way there.

Or you can stay content as a couch potato for live and be a parasite to all that is living.

My reply : It means that there are others who take Buddhism as religion because they still living a life as a normal person with family and normal desires. These people are still trying to find their ways and your views (which is OK by your standard) wouldn't do much good for them. It may upset them or shake their beliefs as well. That's what I meant.

I think you defined how to live as a Buddhist yourself. Right, I'll keep that in mind.


Of course I take the challenge, depends on how the outcome it will be and it's purpose. If it's purpose is for destruction, it is ok to be coward. Better to be a coward than sacrificing what is noble and good just for that purpose. It is worst than cowardly if you choose to run away from your responsibilities as well.

My reply : Depends ON the outcome? Kid ... you can't be THIS naive for real.
If you know the outcome of each action you take, then you could have reach the state of Buddha by now. No one knows the outcome of your action because it (your actions) doesn't effect you alone, it effects everyone around you, and who knows how others feel about it.

Naive? How do you define naive? Stupidity? Futility? I used to think that as well. Think of people who lobby for Yankees not to attack Iraq. You can call them naive. Think about environmentalists who lobby for complete ban of nuclear weapons and chemicals worldwide. Laughable. Why would a bunch of power-drunk idiots listen to uneducated masses (to them)? Why would I want to recycle aluminium and plastic, knowing the earth will eventually get blown either by a fucking meteor or by the same idiots who prioritize materialism over Mother Nature?

I don't know. However, you have heard of Confucius said; "Journey of a thousand miles begins with one step". I believe in that. Think of the Cuba missle crisis in Kennedy's time and how it was prevented. Think again of Eastern countries who toppled their Western rulers when it was deemed impossible. How primitive swords and spears could win over cannons and rifles of colonialists? Think of Christians persecuted before Constantine established Christianity in Rome. Simply by that definition of 'naive'. Or I call that “faith”.

Do Good for sake of Good, not for its Purpose. How you know it is Good? Ask yourself WHAT is Good.

My, my (chuckling). Some people think burning adulterous women on stakes is good. Some think raping toddlers is good. Some think having sex orgies with horses are good. How do you define what you said above?

My reply : Serve? Happiness of Whole? Happiness for myself?
Why you burden yourself with so much desires? It gives headache just thinking about it.

At least these "desires" are not for your selfish good. If Martin Luther King j.r and Abe Lincoln as well as Mother Teresa did not have such desires, where would Mankind head now?

For your question, I live today for nothing. I serve no one but myself. If I want happiness, then I will be happy. I cannot make others happy, so I be fair to others (which include not lying or taking what not belongs to me).

That answers. I'll jot down in my journal...

My reply : Arrogant, boastful and ego is part of the human nature. Defeating them doesn't require part in acting, its requires part in understanding and letting go.

It is a part of the perversive side of human nature. Because of Bush’s determination, people will die when he wage war against Iraq. Think where the 90+ dead casualties are by now if Putin submitted to Chechan rebels from that infamous hostage crisis.

Seraphim

Sorry to keep you waiting...let's get back on our discussion. (Let's throw the question whether I'm Corgie in disguise or not into the backlog)

My reply : Who was waiting for you? And why should anyone (myself especially) care whether you are in disguise or not? You can fool others but you can never fool yourself.

Seraphim, I find this quite puzzling. I read that you live your life for yourself, why do you defend Buddhism for others?

My reply : Because others (especially those who lived in region such as Tibet, Thai, Nepal etc) cannot do so because they have lack of equipement such as computers and Internet. I have already explain this before.

Don’t underestimate hell, my friend. Do not talk as if martrydom will render your pain, noble. Utter childish if you ask me.

My reply : Save the "Be scared of Hell" crap for those who afraid of fire. Only cowards attend to do "noble" (as sarcastic as it gets) to escape such stupid things.

In Buddhism, you make your own hell and your own heaven. In layman's term, you dig your own grave with shovel called Ego and Desire.

Let’s analyze...the West you described is extremely skeptical (Europe and U.S is getting secular in their beliefs), and I agree with you most of the part that their search for spirituality is futile because they pose too many demands on their mindset. These desires come from too much skepticism. The East is much more composed with their beliefs, they have much greater purpose if they're not tainted by negative Western thinking (hence, undiluted East). This comes from one source; loyalty.

My reply : You lost me ... loyalty to whom? God? Their forefathers? Their family and friends?

But..."loyalty" itself can also be mislead by just about anyone who can successfully lead them...because they do not possess skeptical attitude. You get Muslim extremists killing "heathens" and "infidels" because they're brainwashed by fundamental Islam from square one. Another is their dependence of superstitions and blind obedience. Daughters submit to their parents and marry anonymous husbands. Sons have their careers dictated by parents and have no ambition on their own. That is how I view spirituality and culture in the East. All for the sake of religion, honor, family and no room for self. Not to lambast the East, but I think both sides are not superior either way. There are good fruits to be sown and bad seeds to be discarded.

My reply : If this is how you see the East, I cannot help wondering what you been doing the past few years been born and raised here. Did you go through life with your eyes close and your hands clamped to your ears?

Muslim extremists kills others because it's "religion" (if you can call it such) promote such. They didn't change since Muhammad was around, and they will not change till they put an end to Humanity. That I guess is the fate of a Muslim - to destroy everyone and themselves.

As for daughters marrying anonymous husbands and sons following fathers like cow (or Sow, which ever comes first) - this is NOT true in EVER family. Girls still marry in love marriage - especially among Chinese and Muslims (Indian parents however do attend to be strict when comes to marriage). Not ALL fathers or parents force their sons (or daughters) to a specific field of work without their own ambition.

What looks like to me is that this is your own personal experience rather than the picture of the East. Either that or you came from a very small island where such practice still exist.

No, no Seraphim, that won’t do. There is no way every decision to persevere will eventually meet it’s happy ending. Only a God can achieve that. “Do not judge lest ye be judged”. Have you become a Christian from Communist China and you have nails torn off from your flesh and militants systematically rape you day and night? If not “cowardice”, the end is waste and empty achievement. Unless you tell me you've bear more and you triumph everytime you do so.

My reply : IF this is how you go through life, as someone who gives up easily in a fight, weakling and pathetic and expecting others to understand him but never take the step to explain himself to others, then there is NOTHING that I can say to you. Your life, live it or not is no concern of mine.

As for others who is facing situation like what Herbert said, the only way you can proceed through life is by fighting for what you believe in and force yourself to walk your path. Whether it will lead to salvation or damnation, it will be on your shoulders to find out. Remember, NOONE owe you anything.

Gautama did have chance to embrace Hinduism, but he rejected it. Don't you have to call him...coward?

My reply : He choose to find his own answer, he is not a coward. He did follow Hindusm style of meditation - hard methods which weakens the body and the mind, finally reliazed that such methods is not a proper method thus find his own "Middle" Path.

Again, many atheists here have logic and science as their Bibles. That means they’re fixed in their beliefs. Although that may not appeal to you.

My reply : Their choice, why should they expect my approval? Or why should I give approval for something that has nothing to do with me?

Enlightenment in my definition is not Buddhist. It simply means you know the path to happiness in which others do not know. About your attitude, I am not qualified to judge.

My reply : If that is your personal opinion, then I will not say anything.

Oh, pardon my pun. Then isn't Mahatma Gandhi was just a pathetic clown for fighting for independence of India? I wouldn't be surprised those pilots who screwed WTC were happy according to "If you wish to be Happy, then BE Happy"

My reply : How many "cowards" do you know went to war barehanded, wearing white sheet of cloths and armed with nothing more than faith, inner strenght and a staff? When you know what is inner strenght and faith is, then you will know how strong Gandhi was.

As for those idiots who screwed WTC, they were yelling "Jihad" (I persume) and not "Be Happy". They were mental cases who wants short-cut for salvation, all they got was a mass suicide.

I sound too naive here, but how do you define my definition of "Happiness for all"?

My reply : How am I supposed to define something that doesn't exist? If you think there is such thing as "Happiness for ALL", then you define it.

Then, what an erroneous example I suppose. No, no it is irrelevant. He did ponder his purpose, no? Whether blaming others is cowardly or not is irrelevant to my point.

My reply : WRONG. It is VERY relevant to this point (whether you like to hear it or not). Like Hitler who blame his suffering on Jews, many others are blaming their own failiures and short-comings on others. Example - Osama bin Laden and half the freaking Muslim community.

Even in Malaysia, Muslims condemn Jews for being the string behind every failure they face. Muslim leaders sow seeds of hatred in heart of their new generations and thus bring forth destruction to their own societies.

I have asked once in Cari.com.my why there NEVER been any Muslim society which existed (in the past 1,400 years) without prior help from any non-Muslim (in any terms). The answer is what I wrote above ... Muslim leaders damn their own society by sowing seeds of hatred.

Or you can stay content as a couch potato for live and be a parasite to all that is living.

My reply : You have so many choices in life, if you choose to be a couch potato or a parasite, what can I do?

Naive? How do you define naive? Stupidity? Futility? I used to think that as well.

My reply : Naive = Short-sighted. You assume that everyone you will meet will follow exactly what you think they will do. You assume that the world works exactly like how you picture it to work. That is Naive.

Think of people who lobby for Yankees not to attack Iraq. You can call them naive. Think about environmentalists who lobby for complete ban of nuclear weapons and chemicals worldwide. Laughable. Why would a bunch of power-drunk idiots listen to uneducated masses (to them)? Why would I want to recycle aluminium and plastic, knowing the earth will eventually get blown either by a fucking meteor or by the same idiots who prioritize materialism over Mother Nature?

My reply : Short sighted indeed. 0_o

I don't know. However, you have heard of Confucius said; "Journey of a thousand miles begins with one step". I believe in that. Think of the Cuba missle crisis in Kennedy's time and how it was prevented. Think again of Eastern countries who toppled their Western rulers when it was deemed impossible. How primitive swords and spears could win over cannons and rifles of colonialists? Think of Christians persecuted before Constantine established Christianity in Rome. Simply by that definition of 'naive'. Or I call that “faith”.

My reply : Determination, Inner strenght and sense of purpose. Those examples above achieve by this, not simply for being naive alone.
Cuban missile crises was prevented because both side hestitated to fire the fire nuke and believed that peace still could be achieved - Sense of purpose.
Easterns toggle westerns because they finally found their inner strenght, determination and sense of purpose.

My, my (chuckling). Some people think burning adulterous women on stakes is good. Some think raping toddlers is good. Some think having sex orgies with horses are good. How do you define what you said above?

My reply : Telling someone stupid to define Good is a stupid act by itself (I wasn't talking about you, I was referring to your example).
You go to a lustful man and preach him about anything, he will not listen because his head is full of lust. What is the use of telling him to do good, if he doesn't wish to be good?

At least these "desires" are not for your selfish good. If Martin Luther King j.r and Abe Lincoln as well as Mother Teresa did not have such desires, where would Mankind head now?

My reply : Mankind will be head in the same direction as we are heading now. Luther, Lincoln and Mother Theresa are only some of what Humanity could achieve if they set their mind to it. Anyone could be like them IF they work toward a cause.

It is a part of the perversive side of human nature. Because of Bush’s determination, people will die when he wage war against Iraq. Think where the 90+ dead casualties are by now if Putin submitted to Chechan rebels from that infamous hostage crisis.

My reply : Go and tell that to Iraq, or ask Osama what he was thinking when he ordered his men to slam couple of jet into WTC. Muslim extremists disturbed the hornet's nest, now they have to suffer for it. As for Putin and Chechan rebels, what do you suggest?

Ever heard of the word - "For every action, there is equal and opposite action"? Same goes for karma.

Herbert Von Karajan

My reply : Because others (especially those who lived in region such as Tibet, Thai, Nepal etc) cannot do so because they have lack of equipement such as computers and Internet. I have already explain this before.

Jingos...Earlier: If you wish for an answer, go and Find it. Don't expect the answer to come and find you.
Why bother feeding fish to those who doesn’t even ask for it?

My reply : Save the "Be scared of Hell" crap for those who afraid of fire. Only cowards attend to do "noble" (as sarcastic as it gets) to escape such stupid things.

In Buddhism, you make your own hell and your own heaven. In layman's term, you dig your own grave with shovel called Ego and Desire.

(Confused again). I thought you meant burning in the Abrahamic Sheol...


My reply : You lost me ... loyalty to whom? God? Their forefathers? Their family and friends?

And why bother criticizing the West when even your own people have no purpose when purpose is only following the road for the sake of it? All, Seraphim.


My reply : If this is how you see the East, I cannot help wondering what you been doing the past few years been born and raised here. Did you go through life with your eyes close and your hands clamped to your ears?

Brother, I can’t blame you if you’re a psychic. Again I could be that Corgan guy . Again I could be Bill Gates. Maybe even your own schizophrenic side ... Aw, don’t take that seriously, mate...

Muslim extremists kills others because it's "religion" (if you can call it such) promote such. They didn't change since Muhammad was around, and they will not change till they put an end to Humanity. That I guess is the fate of a Muslim - to destroy everyone and themselves.

So, you do admit bad seeds are present in the East.

As for daughters marrying anonymous husbands and sons following fathers like cow (or Sow, which ever comes first) - this is NOT true in EVER family. Girls still marry in love marriage - especially among Chinese and Muslims (Indian parents however do attend to be strict when comes to marriage). Not ALL fathers or parents force their sons (or daughters) to a specific field of work without their own ambition.

Seraph, my dear Seraph, even if you decide to apply the “True Scotsman” fallacy, why don’t be fair to both sides? You generalize atheists, Muslims, now you evade my point with such sentences as “this is NOT true in EVER family”. I assume you can do better than this?

(P/S: For your info, “True Scotsman” fallacy goes like this; Suppose I assert that no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. You counter this by pointing our your fellow Scotsman likes sugar in his porridge. I then say “Ah, yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

Example: Take this as one of conversations with a Muslim."Muslim extremists kills others because it's "religion" (if you can call it such) promote such. They didn't change since Muhammad was around, and they will not change till they put an end to Humanity. That I guess is the fate of a Muslim - to destroy everyone and themselves. " Then I reply; “That’s pathetic. If that is true, all Muslims will destroy Westerners by now. No true Muslim will do that, because he’ll be judged harshly by Allah. Don’t you hate these lame rebuttals?)

P/S to moderator: Don’t sue me for copyright infringement...]

What looks like to me is that this is your own personal experience rather than the picture of the East. Either that or you came from a very small island where such practice still exist.

Take a peek my psychic friend! Is Osama using my toilet as I type?

My reply : IF this is how you go through life, as someone who gives up easily in a fight, weakling and pathetic and expecting others to understand him but never take the step to explain himself to others, then there is NOTHING that I can say to you. Your life, live it or not is no concern of mine.

I suppose this quote; “People who are trying to do good for others attend to lose their ways easily upon facing failures in size of the Great Wall (of China). Don't be like a Kite or a Fishing string, you could break half way there.” is irrelevant to that point, above?


As for others who is facing situation like what Herbert said, the only way you can proceed through life is by fighting for what you believe in and force yourself to walk your path. Whether it will lead to salvation or damnation, it will be on your shoulders to find out. Remember, NOONE owe you anything.

If none owes me anything, why should I continue to thread that path? Bravado and honor based on nothing is futile anyway, agree?


My reply : He choose to find his own answer, he is not a coward. He did follow Hindusm style of meditation - hard methods which weakens the body and the mind, finally reliazed that such methods is not a proper method thus find his own "Middle" Path.

Don’t you realise the next rebuttal means I am repeating what others have retorted for umpteenth time? (Ah, ignore this. Move on)

My reply : How many "cowards" do you know went to war barehanded, wearing white sheet of cloths and armed with nothing more than faith, inner strenght and a staff? When you know what is inner strenght and faith is, then you will know how strong Gandhi was.

What are we discussing about? Gandhi was struggling in his ideals for whom?

As for those idiots who screwed WTC, they were yelling "Jihad" (I persume) and not "Be Happy". They were mental cases who wants short-cut for salvation, all they got was a mass suicide.

I guess that makes another “True Scotsman”.

My reply : How am I supposed to define something that doesn't exist? If you think there is such thing as "Happiness for ALL", then you define it.

Sorry, erroneous grammar. You shouldn’t be doing the work where only my damn aging brains can do...

Then, what an erroneous example I suppose. No, no it is irrelevant. He did ponder his purpose, no? Whether blaming others is cowardly or not is irrelevant to my point.

My reply : WRONG. It is VERY relevant to this point (whether you like to hear it or not). Like Hitler who blame his suffering on Jews, many others are blaming their own failiures and short-comings on others. Example - Osama bin Laden and half the freaking Muslim community.

You got a point. One should find his/her own purpose without making others as scapegoats.
My, what a great discussion we are having. As for below, just keep it for yourself.

My reply : You have so many choices in life, if you choose to be a couch potato or a parasite, what can I do?

Good one...

My reply : Naive = Short-sighted. You assume that everyone you will meet will follow exactly what you think they will do. You assume that the world works exactly like how you picture it to work. That is Naive.

If that is how you read about my morale on “positive thinking”, I can say no more. To some, everyone can change for the benefit of all. To some, it is naive. To some others, better to be “naive” than be called arrogant. Oooopppsss...my rambling.

My reply : Determination, Inner strenght and sense of purpose. Those examples above achieve by this, not simply for being naive alone.
Cuban missile crises was prevented because both side hestitated to fire the fire nuke and believed that peace still could be achieved - Sense of purpose.
Easterns toggle westerns because they finally found their inner strenght, determination and sense of purpose.
Again Seraphim, ponder;

Imagine what the Russians perceive of the Japanese before they were toppled in war. Imagine the perceptions of the Yankees of Japan before Pearl Harbor is struck. Imagine the confidence of Yankees against Vietnamese when participating in Vietnam war. “Faith” is called “Naive” by others, and vice-versa.


My reply : Telling someone stupid to define Good is a stupid act by itself (I wasn't talking about you, I was referring to your example).
You go to a lustful man and preach him about anything, he will not listen because his head is full of lust. What is the use of telling him to do good, if he doesn't wish to be good?

You agree that there is no universality in mankind. So, there you go; you defined a “nice” act in loonies as being outrageously stupid. And you must agree with me it can be vice-versa, again.

Anyone could be like them IF they work toward a cause.

Huh? Why the change of mind? Remember this? Earlier: Naive = Short-sighted. You assume that everyone you will meet will follow exactly what you think they will do. You assume that the world works exactly like how you picture it to work. That is Naive.


My reply : Go and tell that to Iraq, or ask Osama what he was thinking when he ordered his men to slam couple of jet into WTC. Muslim extremists disturbed the hornet's nest, now they have to suffer for it. As for Putin and Chechan rebels, what do you suggest?

Ever heard of the word - "For every action, there is equal and opposite action"? Same goes for karma.

hhhmmm...I suppose your way of sarcasm wouldn't affect your karma.

AdamWho

Seraphim
So I thought about this a little more. What I seek from Buddhism and life in general is understanding; both of the physical nature of reality and of my personal psychology. What Buddhism has to offer is an ethic of "harm reduction" that I have used in my life. It also gives structure to a personal psychological evaluation, which I believe is the point of the four noble truths. Honestly, all the other superstitions stuff I toss out, it seems like so much fluff.
Sorry to reduce Buddhism to a self-help program but that is the nature of westerners; we have other things to do.

Seraphim

Jingos...Earlier: If you wish for an answer, go and Find it. Don't expect the answer to come and find you.
Why bother feeding fish to those who doesn’t even ask for it?

My reply : Your analog and my explaination have nothing to do with each other. I explained that the reason I've answered here is because there are others who take Buddhism as religion and they have no means to communicate to outside world to explain their views. You seems to be imply that I'm doing this because I was looking for answers myself.

(Confused again). I thought you meant burning in the Abrahamic Sheol...

My reply : If you are confused, I can't do anything about that, could I?

And why bother criticizing the West when even your own people have no purpose when purpose is only following the road for the sake of it? All, Seraphim.

My reply : I have no obligation to answer you here since you have not answer my question. Who is loyal to whom?

Brother, I can’t blame you if you’re a psychic. Again I could be that Corgan guy . Again I could be Bill Gates. Maybe even your own schizophrenic side ... Aw, don’t take that seriously, mate...

My reply : And why should I care whether you are Corgan or Bill Gates? And you are definately not my own schizophrenic side either (not that I have one).

So, you do admit bad seeds are present in the East.

My reply : Excuse me, Islam is from MIDDLE-EAST, Not East.

Seraph, my dear Seraph, even if you decide to apply the “True Scotsman” fallacy, why don’t be fair to both sides? You generalize atheists, Muslims, now you evade my point with such sentences as “this is NOT true in EVER family”. I assume you can do better than this?

My reply : Again, you sound like this is personal opinion based on personal experience rather than something that actually happens in the East. Take it or leave, either is no concern of mine.

Example: Take this as one of conversations with a Muslim."Muslim extremists kills others because it's "religion" (if you can call it such) promote such. They didn't change since Muhammad was around, and they will not change till they put an end to Humanity. That I guess is the fate of a Muslim - to destroy everyone and themselves. " Then I reply; “That’s pathetic. If that is true, all Muslims will destroy Westerners by now. No true Muslim will do that, because he’ll be judged harshly by Allah. Don’t you hate these lame rebuttals?)

My reply : Do you judge ALL religion and teaching based on stupidity of Muslims?

I suppose this quote; “People who are trying to do good for others attend to lose their ways easily upon facing failures in size of the Great Wall (of China). Don't be like a Kite or a Fishing string, you could break half way there.” is irrelevant to that point, above?

My reply : Relevant, since people who trying to do good without having proper cause or strong inner strenght will breakhalf way when they start to have doubt about themselves and their causes.

If none owes me anything, why should I continue to thread that path? Bravado and honor based on nothing is futile anyway, agree?

My reply : Exactly, why should you thread in that path?

What are we discussing about? Gandhi was struggling in his ideals for whom?

My reply : Gandhi was struggling with his ideal for his country and against oppression. His cause and his path is justified so he went all the way to the end without breaking down in the middle.

Sorry, erroneous grammar. You shouldn’t be doing the work where only my damn aging brains can do...

My reply : You came up with this "Happiness for All" crap, not me, so it is only logical that you explain what it is, not me.

If that is how you read about my morale on “positive thinking”, I can say no more. To some, everyone can change for the benefit of all. To some, it is naive. To some others, better to be “naive” than be called arrogant. Oooopppsss...my rambling.

My reply : Change for sake of others? How long you going to live for others? What do you consider as beneficial to others? Who is this "others" in your opinion?

Again Seraphim, ponder;

Imagine what the Russians perceive of the Japanese before they were toppled in war. Imagine the perceptions of the Yankees of Japan before Pearl Harbor is struck. Imagine the confidence of Yankees against Vietnamese when participating in Vietnam war. “Faith” is called “Naive” by others, and vice-versa.

My reply : Hmph ... you seems to think that Ignorance and Stupidity as Faith as well. Russians and USA looked down on Japanese and Vietnam because of their ignorance and stupidity, which is why they lost the war. Nothing special about that.

... agree that there is no universality in mankind. So, there you go; you defined a “nice” act in loonies as being outrageously stupid. And you must agree with me it can be vice-versa, again.

My reply : Meaning?

Huh? Why the change of mind? Remember this? Earlier: Naive = Short-sighted. You assume that everyone you will meet will follow exactly what you think they will do. You assume that the world works exactly like how you picture it to work. That is Naive.

My reply : Now you lost me ... explain.

hhhmmm...I suppose your way of sarcasm wouldn't affect your karma.

My reply : My karma, I'm the one who supposed to be worried about it, not you.

Herbert Von Karajan

My reply : I have no obligation to answer you here since you have not answer my question. Who is loyal to whom?

Didn't I said; all, Seraphim. Mentioned earlier; religion, their forefathers, family, etc. I've said they've been loyal for the sake of "loyal". They've never asked at least if it will benefit themselves.


My reply : Excuse me, Islam is from MIDDLE-EAST, Not East.

Great, I suppose you can call Europe, Middle-West and Australia/Oceania...I've lost it...

My reply : Do you judge ALL religion and teaching based on stupidity of Muslims?

ROTFLMAO!!!

Look what happens when I'm trying to illustrate the "True Scotsman fallacy"...

To MODERATOR Grizzy: Can you send a link to "Logic and Fallacies" for our friend here, please?

My reply : Exactly, why should you thread in that path?

When that path serve a particular rewarding purpose. Nobody wants to toil the Himalayas to meet a giant troll who'll make a lunch out of them.

My reply : Gandhi was struggling with his ideal for his country and against oppression. His cause and his path is justified so he went all the way to the end without breaking down in the middle.

Now, he's doing it for the country. What is wrong? Doesn't he struggled for happiness of a lot of people, at least?

My reply : You came up with this "Happiness for All" crap, not me, so it is only logical that you explain what it is, not me.

Simply mutual happiness for all regardless their creed, religion, race, etc (bah, getting sappy here...).

My reply : Change for sake of others? How long you going to live for others? What do you consider as beneficial to others? Who is this "others" in your opinion?

Change for the sake of others? For the sake of future generations to come, never mind the scums of the earth at present.

How long? Depends on whatever ideals/goals you're in. Incase of toppling colonialists, it is for the sake of future generations.

What do I consider as benificial to others? Liberty, freedom of belief, ideals and right to live as example.

Who is this "others"? Anyone you wish!

Remember again: "If I'm not going to hell for the sake of others, who will?" Gandhi went into "hell", and look at what he reaps.

My reply : Hmph ... you seems to think that Ignorance and Stupidity as Faith as well. Russians and USA looked down on Japanese and Vietnam because of their ignorance and stupidity, which is why they lost the war. Nothing special about that.

My dear Seraphim. I'm trying to illustrate a subjective thing here. It simply means what is "naive" in some means "faith", and vice-versa. Defining only complicates what I am trying to say here. When people mock your faith as "naive", it is natural to lambast them, correct? And vice-versa as well! (Do I want to tell you what "vice-versa" is?)

My reply : Meaning?

So, there you go; you defined a “nice” act in loonies as being outrageously stupid. And you must agree with me it can be vice-versa, again.

"Loonies" are Muslim fundies who blow themselves up in order to be martyrs. In your eyes they are morons. In their eyes, mocking their bravado means stupidity and ignorance.

My reply : Now you lost me ... explain.

Let's skip the complication. Your earlier statement: "Anyone could be like them IF they work toward a cause. " contradicts with; Naive = Short-sighted. You assume that everyone you will meet will follow exactly what you think they will do. You assume that the world works exactly like how you picture it to work. That is Naive.

Everyone is possible to follow exactly what you think they will do. As long it is towards a mutual cause. Not for your arbitrary purpose.

I hope you still have a clear head. Goodday.

Seraphim

[/b]Didn't I said; all, Seraphim. Mentioned earlier; religion, their forefathers, family, etc. I've said they've been loyal for the sake of "loyal". They've never asked at least if it will benefit themselves. [/b]

My reply : If you going to waste your existence by being loyal to dead people, that's your problem. I don't think that is practise of the East. Most of the customs in the East is based on either religion or mutual understandings (such as marriage, births and other ceremonies).

As for individual freedom, I have YET to come across anyone in the East who is forced to be loyal to anyone else just because it is had something to do with some dead people. Maybe you can provide us (readers) with some example of this "forced" loyalty.

Great, I suppose you can call Europe, Middle-West and Australia/Oceania...I've lost it...

My reply : Yes, I can.

ROTFLMAO!!!

Look what happens when I'm trying to illustrate the "True Scotsman fallacy"...

To MODERATOR Grizzy: Can you send a link to "Logic and Fallacies" for our friend here, please?

My reply : Cut the crap, the moderators have other things to worry about than your messages. My question is simple - Do you judge other religion followers all because of Muslims' stupidity? Yes or No, thank you.

When that path serve a particular rewarding purpose. Nobody wants to toil the Himalayas to meet a giant troll who'll make a lunch out of them.

My reply : True ... everyone wants the most rewarding reward wih less work to show for, that doesn't mean it is true or proper ... is it?

Now, he's doing it for the country. What is wrong? Doesn't he struggled for happiness of a lot of people, at least?

My reply : IF he (Gandhi) did, then I persumed he died a very disappointed man. No one could satisfy everyone and neither did Gandhi. The Hindus feared the Muslims and Muslims wanted a separate country and they got it. Gandhi tried to keep them together but in the end, he got a bullet for his effect.

Simply mutual happiness for all regardless their creed, religion, race, etc (bah, getting sappy here...).

My reply : Humanity have not evolved enough to give such happiness to all. Humanity still fights because its need as a group is always above the need of others.

"Man weren't born to bring happiness to each other..." - Pscyho Mantis in a game called "Metal Gear Solid".

Change for the sake of others? For the sake of future generations to come, never mind the scums of the earth at present.

My reply : Future generation? You're a dreamer, so keep dreaming. Future is uncertain and the past is gone, only thing that you should worry is NOW. If you want to make a difference, do it NOW, and start with YOURSELF.

How sure are you that the future generation you work so hard for won't come as scums of the earth?
How sure are you that there will be a future? I bet Humanity won't be around 100 years from now, can you say otherwise?

How long? Depends on whatever ideals/goals you're in. Incase of toppling colonialists, it is for the sake of future generations.

My reply : This I have to agree since I'm also in a country who was colonized before. However, working for future generations alone without education the ones exist now is useless. This is why so many country lost its customs and morale values after the colonial periods.

What do I consider as benificial to others? Liberty, freedom of belief, ideals and right to live as example.

My reply : Here's a waste of time. If a person do not seek such thing as you mentioned about, why should you be bother to seek it for him? A person who doesn't wish for freedom and liberty will not appreciate it once it is given to him, he will lose it once again because he is sure someone like you will waste your existence to bring him those value.

[/b]Who is this "others"? Anyone you wish! [/b]
My reply : You sound more like a hitman than a liberator.

Remember again: "If I'm not going to hell for the sake of others, who will?" Gandhi went into "hell", and look at what he reaps.

My reply : He went to "Hell" because he wanted to do it. He choose to fight and he choose the method to fight and his own enemies. No one made those choices for him. In short, he choose to go to "hell" in behalf of others not because others cannot do it themselves, it was because he could do it himself.

My dear Seraphim. I'm trying to illustrate a subjective thing here. It simply means what is "naive" in some means "faith", and vice-versa. Defining only complicates what I am trying to say here. When people mock your faith as "naive", it is natural to lambast them, correct? And vice-versa as well! (Do I want to tell you what "vice-versa" is?)

My reply : I have choices which I can follow and make. If someone make mocks about my beliefs, I will ask them why and I will explain to them properly, I will not start blasting them simply because of their ignorance of my point of view, because such thing means I'm as ignorant as they are.

So, there you go; you defined a “nice” act in loonies as being outrageously stupid. And you must agree with me it can be vice-versa, again.

My reply : act of stupidity depends on what the act is, not who is doing it. However, I don't understand the "vice versa" part.

"Loonies" are Muslim fundies who blow themselves up in order to be martyrs. In your eyes they are morons. In their eyes, mocking their bravado means stupidity and ignorance.

My reply : In my eyes, they are suicidal morons because they cause damages and lost of lives to OTHERS, including heritages which belongs to other people.
Take Atheists for example, I don't see them as morons, only less spiritual-minded. I don't blast them simply because of our differences, ONLY their sometimes unacceptable ways in presenting other people's beliefs and such.

Let's skip the complication. Your earlier statement: "Anyone could be like them IF they work toward a cause. " contradicts with; Naive = Short-sighted. You assume that everyone you will meet will follow exactly what you think they will do. You assume that the world works exactly like how you picture it to work. That is Naive.

Everyone is possible to follow exactly what you think they will do. As long it is towards a mutual cause. Not for your arbitrary purpose.

My reply : So in another word, you will be happy as long as others follow your words and pursuit? So what's a difference between them and a puppet?

Herbert Von Karajan

My reply : If you going to waste your existence by being loyal to dead people, that's your problem.

Your family's all wiped out in a plane crash? Forgive me if I reminded you that you're an orphan.

I don't think that is practise of the East. Most of the customs in the East is based on either religion or mutual understandings (such as marriage, births and other ceremonies).

Or you've forgotten all of those you mentioned are based on force, blind fanaticism and doing it for the sake of it's custom's aesthetics?

As for individual freedom, I have YET to come across anyone in the East who is forced to be loyal to anyone else just because it is had something to do with some dead people. Maybe you can provide us (readers) with some example of this "forced" loyalty.

I am sorry if my grammar insulted your intelligence. It has more to do than only dead people.

My reply : Cut the crap, the moderators have other things to worry about than your messages. My question is simple - Do you judge other religion followers all because of Muslims' stupidity? Yes or No, thank you.

I knew English is only a secondary language in your country, but even as a German I made my statements perfectly clear. No need to be interrogated by ignorance. And to see you get all emotional by anonymous internet users, give it a chill, brother.

My reply : IF he (Gandhi) did, then I persumed he died a very disappointed man. No one could satisfy everyone and neither did Gandhi. The Hindus feared the Muslims and Muslims wanted a separate country and they got it. Gandhi tried to keep them together but in the end, he got a bullet for his effect.

Haven't you said that the only way you can proceed through life is by fighting for what you believe in and force yourself to walk your path? Whether it will lead to salvation or damnation, it will be on your shoulders to find out. If you're quick in making decisions like this in your life, people can judge you as a coward. Coward because you think only of your own, and not for others.

My reply : Humanity have not evolved enough to give such happiness to all. Humanity still fights because its need as a group is always above the need of others.

"Man weren't born to bring happiness to each other..." - Pscyho Mantis in a game called "Metal Gear Solid".

Gautama preached Buddhism because Enlightenment is for All, not for selected few, regardless whether one's karma is. It does not concern whether who deserves to be Enlightened or not. I tell you the truth my friend, the nihilistic philosophy of Nietzsche suits you more than Buddhism.


My reply : Future generation? You're a dreamer, so keep dreaming. Future is uncertain and the past is gone, only thing that you should worry is NOW. If you want to make a difference, do it NOW, and start with YOURSELF.

Don't patronise me, dear psychic. After all, you have better things to do than arguing with strangers online? If you don't want to be called "ignorant", check Google for ad hominem.

How sure are you that the future generation you work so hard for won't come as scums of the earth?
How sure are you that there will be a future? I bet Humanity won't be around 100 years from now, can you say otherwise?

I thought you said the future is uncertain?

My reply : This I have to agree since I'm also in a country who was colonized before. However, working for future generations alone without education the ones exist now is useless. This is why so many country lost its customs and morale values after the colonial periods.

I am so confused now I do not know what to argue. Are you going to educate them or not? Are you going to worry they'll waste your time and effort if they turn out to be scums of the earth?

My reply : Here's a waste of time. If a person do not seek such thing as you mentioned about, why should you be bother to seek it for him? A person who doesn't wish for freedom and liberty will not appreciate it once it is given to him, he will lose it once again because he is sure someone like you will waste your existence to bring him those value.

Seraphim, how can you be so sure there are people out there who wants you to help defending Buddhism?! You treat it as if it is a bloody religion. Buddhism has nothing to be defended, let those who seek it seek it for themselves....

One question: why are you wasting your time here with me? For what? Don't try to interrogate my character for once, please?


My reply : He went to "Hell" because he wanted to do it. He choose to fight and he choose the method to fight and his own enemies. No one made those choices for him. In short, he choose to go to "hell" in behalf of others not because others cannot do it themselves, it was because he could do it himself.

Then when people are trying to be Gandhi, the lest you an do is refraining from making pessimistic comments. People call that "pest".

My reply : I have choices which I can follow and make. If someone make mocks about my beliefs, I will ask them why and I will explain to them properly, I will not start blasting them simply because of their ignorance of my point of view, because such thing means I'm as ignorant as they are.

I think people will stop mocking your beliefs if you don't patronize them in the first place.

My reply : So in another word, you will be happy as long as others follow your words and pursuit? So what's a difference between them and a puppet?

It is up to them. My desires can mean their desires, too, no? The difference between them and puppet is they can oblige or not.

Grizzly

Herbert Von Karajan and Seraphim,

I try to stay out of threads for the most part because sometimes I feel that participating in a thread will compromise my ability to moderate. Plus, I am a strong advocate for the free expression and discussion of ideas without undue influence or moderation.

Having said that, I must respectfully ask that you both tone down your rhetoric and stop the personal insults. Both of you have interesting thoughts that are getting lost due to the personal nature that this thread has taken. Please take this as a warning to cease and desist. If nothing can be salvaged from this thread I will lock it.

Sincerely

Grizzly