Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crocodile deathroll · 08-10-2002, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweet as a nut:
well croc, that would depend on the conditions present, not that i am qualified to demonstrate the existence of any such conditions, only that time might not be necessary under those hypothetical circumstance.

If you have already noted the topic "does time really exist" then you might have a good grasp of what i am writing of/about.

Perception of time does depend on change, and, those changes must be perceptible. Let me demonstrate:

'i live in a cube, the walls are white and i have a functional watch. The only way i can notice time is by having the watch, which is, in itself, meaningless. the timepiece may as well have one hand and a thousand numbers, and it is not in sychrony with a world location indicating the passage of night and day. Time can be reinvented easily.'

it could be a case of 'you say tomaytow and i say tomartow', but then again i am not sure whether the words CHANGE and TIME are interchangeable.

Evidently our <a href="http://www.webexchange.net/office/sci-time-flies.htm" target="_blank">Sense of time </a> goes haywire if we have some problem with our brains like Parkinsons disease

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

crocodile deathroll · 08-10-2002, 06:01 PM

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

crocodile deathroll · 08-10-2002, 06:03 PM

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]

Ierrellus · 08-12-2002, 06:46 AM

sweet as a nut,

Homology is concerned with structural and functional aspects of evolutionary changes in retention of an organism's basic operational mechanisms. Where the concept of homology becomes confusing is when one mistakes it for analogy. The example I gave in another thread is that one can see the homology in a bat's arm and a human arm; but the analogy that confuses is to insist that mechanisms for flight are homologious., e.g., a flies' wings must be homologious to a bat's wings.

I love analogy and suffer for it. I think that our primitive ancestors must have been most familiar with bird sounds and bird tracks in mud, hence cuneiform! Fun, but not necessarily so.

Ierrellus
PAX

Ierrellus · 08-12-2002, 06:58 AM

snatchbalance,

I firmly believe that organization in a cell and organization in the social "organism" are a matter of homology, not simply of analogy. As I research conditions for existence, I find this more and more to be true. Symbiosis and synchronicity are two good examples of survival by interdependence.

Ierrellus
PAX

Ierrellus · 08-12-2002, 07:29 AM

Mr. Sammi,

Without a distinction between "this" and "that" eating or sex would be impossible. What is the internal mechanism that makes this distinction?
It is a prerequisite for consciousness!

Ierrellus,
PAX

Ierrellus · 08-12-2002, 07:50 AM

crocodile deathroll,

Yes, IMO, consciousness depends on an organism's sense of time as change in objects in motion. On an experential level time, change, distance and motion are inextricably linked together.

Ierrellus
PAX

snatchbalance · 08-14-2002, 02:17 PM

Ierrellus,

Have you come any closer to the limits of "consciousness"?

sb

crocodile deathroll · 08-18-2002, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ierrellus:
crocodile deathroll,

Yes, IMO, consciousness depends on an organism's sense of time as change in objects in motion. On an experential level time, change, distance and motion are inextricably linked together.

Ierrellus
PAX

Yes I agree a sense of motion is inextricably tied in with a sense of time. But sense of motion fine tunes our sense of time with a the person's <a href="http://www.dhushara.com/book/brainp/stands.htminternal" target="_blank">internal clock </a> like a sense of colour fine tunes our sense of sight.
If a person's internal clock runs 5 to 10 per cent faster or slower they probably won't feel any difference. But if the internal clock runs excessively fast, perhaps we eventually become aware of a problem and begin to feel that things are happening to us in slow motion.
Same as if you were to run a movie camera drive motor excessively fast the subject matter it is filming appear to slow down but if you just switch the camera off and switch it on again 24 hours later then it will in an instant cut past that 24 hour period when you play it back. Same as if your brain was switched off for 24 hours and switched on again, you will skip over that 24 hour period like as though it did not exist.
This creates and interesting paradox: What will happen when you brain is switched off for good like when you die. Will you be taken beyond the end of eternity? But eternity is supposed to have no end to it.
My theory is that there will be a Gestalt Switch mechanism at work. A circle of witnesses may witness your death but you will switch to the world-line of another brain that does sense some endurance of time, and with all the memories of your previous existence obliterated it will fill like a one life trajectory.

croc

Mr. Sammi · 08-19-2002, 06:02 AM

Ierrellus,

You disrupted my brain patterns of understanding when you wrote : "What is the internal mechanism that makes this distinction? It is a prerequisite for consciousness!".

I am unsure of your line of questioning concerning the internal mechanism which makes distinctions. Were you asking me?

* * *

I do not think there is a particular mechanism which is distinctively responsible for discerning this from that. This and that are already guarenteed distinction because of their existence. When we sense existence this and that are already apparent by virtue of the relayed information.

Mabye you are questioning how we appoint internal qualities to the representation, thus being able to discern what is fish to eat and what is fish destined for the garbage...

Therefore I disagree on our ability to distinguish between this and that as a prerequisite for consciousness because as I said, this and that are already distuinguished prior to our perception of them both. Mabye you wish to rethink what it is you posit.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

08-10-2002, 06:01 PM	#72
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

08-10-2002, 06:03 PM	#73
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

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08-12-2002, 06:46 AM	#74
Ierrellus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,082	sweet as a nut, Homology is concerned with structural and functional aspects of evolutionary changes in retention of an organism's basic operational mechanisms. Where the concept of homology becomes confusing is when one mistakes it for analogy. The example I gave in another thread is that one can see the homology in a bat's arm and a human arm; but the analogy that confuses is to insist that mechanisms for flight are homologious., e.g., a flies' wings must be homologious to a bat's wings. I love analogy and suffer for it. I think that our primitive ancestors must have been most familiar with bird sounds and bird tracks in mud, hence cuneiform! Fun, but not necessarily so. Ierrellus PAX

08-12-2002, 06:58 AM	#75
Ierrellus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,082	snatchbalance, I firmly believe that organization in a cell and organization in the social "organism" are a matter of homology, not simply of analogy. As I research conditions for existence, I find this more and more to be true. Symbiosis and synchronicity are two good examples of survival by interdependence. Ierrellus PAX

08-12-2002, 07:29 AM	#76
Ierrellus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,082	Mr. Sammi, Without a distinction between "this" and "that" eating or sex would be impossible. What is the internal mechanism that makes this distinction? It is a prerequisite for consciousness! Ierrellus, PAX

08-12-2002, 07:50 AM	#77
Ierrellus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,082	crocodile deathroll, Yes, IMO, consciousness depends on an organism's sense of time as change in objects in motion. On an experential level time, change, distance and motion are inextricably linked together. Ierrellus PAX

08-14-2002, 02:17 PM	#78
snatchbalance Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CT Posts: 333	Ierrellus, Have you come any closer to the limits of "consciousness"? sb

08-19-2002, 06:02 AM	#80
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	Ierrellus, You disrupted my brain patterns of understanding when you wrote : "What is the internal mechanism that makes this distinction? It is a prerequisite for consciousness!". I am unsure of your line of questioning concerning the internal mechanism which makes distinctions. Were you asking me? * * * I do not think there is a particular mechanism which is distinctively responsible for discerning this from that. This and that are already guarenteed distinction because of their existence. When we sense existence this and that are already apparent by virtue of the relayed information. Mabye you are questioning how we appoint internal qualities to the representation, thus being able to discern what is fish to eat and what is fish destined for the garbage... Therefore I disagree on our ability to distinguish between this and that as a prerequisite for consciousness because as I said, this and that are already distuinguished prior to our perception of them both. Mabye you wish to rethink what it is you posit. Sammi Na Boodie ()

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