NOGO

Ah, Meta, my friend,
First, about the "being endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights."

You make this out to be much, much more than it is. Anybody who has been wronged will claim that God gives them inalienable rights to etc. and what they are about to do is blessed by God himself. Nice words.

All that is, is to give themselves PERMISSION to proceed. That is saying we are good, we are going to do good and we have the RIGHT to do good.

After the permission and the nice words people get down to business. What is the declaration of independence? In a nutshell, we have the right to make our own laws.

This did not exist in ancient Israel because the model was different. The laws were handed down by God himself. I am well aware that some laws in the OT protect people agaisnt abuse in some situations. I am not saying that these laws were 100% oppresive. They had a major flaw. Nobody could change them because they were from God.

Surely Meta, my friend, you understand this. I will give you an example concerning divorce. Jesus complains that authorities in his time allowed divorce. He restates GOD LAW, What God unites man cannot take apart.

Ancient Israel ignored this and so do we today. This is the principle of democracy.

Anynody who declares "we have the inalienable right to make our own laws" is saying that they reject God's laws as stated in the Bible.

Radorth above mentioned abortion but he did not mention divorce and a multitude of other laws in the OT which simply no longer apply to our society. Meta I am sure that you see that the OT laws no longer apply but there are people out there who wont agree.

To me democracy is the realization that the laws we live by are our responsibility. You are right in saying that Christians have taken this step. You are wrong in saying (if you are saying this) that it was in conformity to Christian values.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Radorth

Every sentence of mine above contains a fact as provable as anything else asserted here (rather gratuitously in some cases). You're just tired of answering them, I'd bet. My posts are invariably a response to a skeptic's assertion. Please present any evidence to the contrary along with such statements.

Radorth

Metacrock

</strong>

Meta =&gt;Now that is what I call a shift in argument. We are talking about the birth of democracy. It doesn't matter what you think about the practice, we are talking about how it got established. There are certainly those who would say that the U.S. declaration of idependence and constituion have a lot to do with that. Those documents were drafted by and ratified by mainly Christians. That came out of their understanding which was conditioned by the Reformation. So your opioin about the effectiveness of those documents is irrelivant. The fact reamains, Christianity had a lot to do with the brith of modern democratic states.

Meta =&gt;Again, I think a lot more of American democracy than you do, apparently, but even if you are right that is beside the point. And to claim that those guys didn't believe that is incredulous.

Meta =&gt;And obvioiusly it was Christians who believed that!


Meta =&gt;Not a flaw if they are good to begin with. you also ignore the descreitionary interpretaion which is why they had judges.

Meta =&gt;NO we don't ignore it, that's why we still have divorce courts. But the Christian tradition is a living tradition. It changes with time. WE don't just litterally and dogmatically insist up one reading of verses. Also, you aren't considering the fact that modern Christians understand (in fact invented) the concept of the secular sphere. We dont' believe that we have a covenant relationship with God as a nation as Israel did we believe in the secular state and secular laws which govern all; seperation of chruch and state..


Meta =&gt; Just total bull. It never says that in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you can't have a secular state. Isreal didn't have a secualr state becasue they had a national covenant with God, which we do not!


Meta =&gt; Your opinion that abortion doesnt' apply. but so what? Very few Christiains, only the lunatic friendge, try to say that the Bible has to apply to every sphere. Most Christians understand secular sphere, and in fact it was christians who invented the concept.


Meta =&gt;Who is saying that they do apply? They don't apply, because we have a new covenant.

Meta =&gt;Please read a history book. Look I'm telling you straight, I teach history in the university of Texas system. You don't know what you're talking about. this is my field, I tech early modern and enlightenment. You have no concept of what you are dealing with. secularization began out of the reformation, it was a christian concept and most christians like it.

There are some Christians who think that the OT still applies in full measure. But that is a minority view, usually of the lunatic right-wing frienge. Most Christains are mainline to liberal. Liberals at least understand and like secularization. You really need check into this stuff more.

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Metacrock ]</p>

NOGO

This is a Christian speaking, however if you step out of the box you will understand what I am talking about.

To me Israel had no covenant with no God ... take it from there. If you make such a claim you must prove it. You are certainly not being an historian with such a claim. Tell me which historians other than Christians historians believe that ancient Israel had a covenant with God as an historical fact. In case you want to know... yes, I do discount Christian historians in this matter.

Israel did not have a secular state for the same reason Saudi-Arabia doesn't today.

It is obvious that you interpret history from your faith's point of view.

More to come ...

NOGO

I will do that.
In the mean time I suggest that you work on shedding your faith and in due time you will see reality and history in a much clearer way.

You credit everything to Christianity. That is totally absurd. If secularism is a Christian concept then Special Relativity must be Jewish.

You should consider that just because a concept was created by a man who happened to be Christian it does not necessarily follow that the concept is Christian or has anything to do with Christianity.

NOGO

There are many Christians who not only are against abortion but also deny the right to lesgislate against God's laws. That is, to them it is not a matter that we can vote on.

NOGO

If this is true then it follows that nations who do not have a covenant relationship with God are secular.

How can this be?
In your view only Israel had a covenant relation with God and therefore a theocracy ruled by laws handed down by God himself and therefore immutable.
It follows that all other nations are/were secular and have the ability to change the laws that govern them.
Yet you say that Christians invented the concept of secularism.

You are in total contradiction, Meta.

Rome was a secular state.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Kantian

Well, secular thought as in "science" has its origins in non-science and is only an euphemism for tomorrow's mythology. It did not pop out of a vaccuum like a divine gift from Epicurean gods. Strictly speaking as a naturalist, secular thought should be seen as an evolution of previous thought, and that was the old philosophy, the science of its day. Since there is a natural progression from instinct to reason, it's fair to say that an ideology of a certain historical period gave birth to another in the subsequent age.

The geniuses of the past used to be the ascetic priest. But civilization transformed, gave birth to Enlightenment, and is in the progress of introducing a new Age of Information. Nowadays, the geniuses are something of a different feather- the scientists. Religion has lost its place as the nexus of authority, since churches slackened their hold on the schools, competing ideologies began to breed and compete freely, and once secular thought was tolerated, the sciences bore fruits, and produced technology at an astonishing rate. This relatively new epoch has our civilization in a accelerated mode- headed for something.

It's not hard to see that it was inevitable: an ideology being replaced by another. Another reason why Christianity was doomed- belief in morality has been a large factor in decaying the belief in God, or the center of existence. But we have yet to overcome its morality.

~Transcendentalist~

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Kantian ]</p>

Sojourner553

I thought you must have been "tired" of answering my posts. {Actually the thought occurred to me you "couldn't" answer them)

I summarized some of them for you:


(1) I found examples of pagan gods that had similarities with Jesus. Mithra was the most important of these.

for example:
"Mithra was held as the son of the Ahura-Mazda, the god of light. In the
philosophical language of his times, he was sometimes referred to as the
Logos that emanated from God, and he who thus shared in His omnipotence.
(Franz Cumont, THE MYSTERIES OF MITHRA, Dover Publications, 1956 p. 140). ... see rest on my post)

__________________________________________

(2) I summarized why I was not a believer:

I can give you a large list why I am not a believer. This is a VERY short list by the way. (I have an expanded list I could dig out.)
*I can point to you discrepancies within the Bible itself, verses where the Bible clearly are touting demons and other superstition.
*I can show you how even the gospel writers disagreed among themselves re: important doctrines on the nature of Jesus.
*I can show you how most of the myths and concepts of Christianity are similar and were probably influenced by that of their of pagan neighbors.
*I can show you how CONSERVATIVE religious groups have opposed science, democracy, and humanity throughout history -- including "civilized" laws we take for granted today.
*I can take you through history and show you that too often the greatest evil is done in the name of religion (ie because "obedience" to God is held to be of "HIGHER" importance that treating our fellow man humanely.)
* And what bothered me the most (still does) is how a good person often cannot tell the difference between a good and bad religious leader, despite their prayers and them being convinced they "feel" God's spirit directing them.
Why else are there so many sects? Why else can't people even AGREE on what is "God's Will." One would think the test would be in obeying "God's Will" -- well most groups can't even agree what that is -- but insist they personally know it.

If you are a good person, fine. Good people have good Gods. The problem is that bad people always see God as being "just like them".
[and lightening bolts don’t come down from the sky to strike them out]
__________________________________________________ ________________

(3) Do you really think ALL THE OTHER RELIGIONS were started by liars?
I think the superstition/hope-seekers model explains it all.

Seems to me you would quickly agree that "modern tests" do a fine job in debunking all other religions' superstitions...
So why cry fowl when they show yours to be in the same category? For if the gospels were really true, it should be passing ALL tests for authenticity with flying colors!
as Percy Bysshe Shelley put it,
"If God has spoken, why is the universe not convinced?"
To which I add: Why can't even "believers in God" agree on what God has spoken -- especially when every one is telling you that God's "spirit" is active through them.
To me, it just explains why good people tend to have "good Gods" and bad people evil Gods.
__________________________________________________ __________

Taken from:
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000526&p=10" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000526&p=10</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000526&p=11" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000526&p=11</a>


(4) Your last post to me was an (untrue) rant that I believed Jesus was not a historical person. Many people on this post will tell you I have always defended that Jesus was probably a historical person… I just do not think he was divine.

That is when your conversation on that post turned dead. I thought you were out of town.

Could you answer my questions...

Else quit bragging that you answer everyone's questions. Because that would not be a truthful statement.

Did you mean you just tried to answer everyone on just this one post, maybe????


Sojourner

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Sojourner553

So have you read a lot on this subject? Why is it that during the Dark Ages -- which was an age of faith -- that we see no independence and freedoms?

The fact is that the US declaration of independence and constitution came almost entirely out of the philosophy of the Enlightenment -- which was influenced by such philosophers as John Locke.

This movement was primarily comprised of a coalition of deists (Unitarians,Jews)/atheists and LIBERAL Christians. The latter (liberal Christians) were influenced by the Enlightenment movement to stress rationality over faith and freedom over obedience to God’s authorities on earth (like the king, the pope, etc).

Thomas Jefferson, one of the leaders of the Enlightenment, battled continuously with right wing, Fundamentalist Christians.
Here are some reasons they did not like him:


I can tell you how many posters I have seem on religious boards shout down the freedoms and ndependence we have today, saying we need to give more authoritative powers to the President to combat incorrect beliefs (ie religious beliefs other than their own – including both religious and non-religious “wrong” thinking) and political views.

They claim instead we must obey God (whomever gets to define that) over the Constitution. That we have become a "ungodly" society.

So it's back to the Dark Ages, if these people get in power.


Sojourner