Albert Cipriani

Dear Wyz,
You are stuffing a stray man in the form of a boy when you ask: If we leave mindless 12-year-olds out of the equation, yes, it does not take intellectual courage for an intellectually mature person to know that he is not inherently superior to the other so-called races. Something like that which seems as obvious as gravity, does not require any intellectual stretching.

I see nothing false in what you’ve stated. Our mines full of beliefs are all veined with doubts. Fear of our believes being in vain prevents us from believing. These seem like self-evident truisms. I see no false dilemma here.

That makes two of us. So what? People can believe the right thing for the wrong reason. To cast aspersions upon the conclusion reached through faulty methods of those who arrive at that conclusion is to commit the argumentum ad logicam fallacy.

That is a profound point. I trust you waste your time here for the same reason I waste my time here, to see better in the dark those things that “the light that enlighteneth every man who comes into the world (John 1)” enables us to see. God Bless You, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Jobar

Albert, my own belief in, say, gravitation, approaches certainty- but there is still the tiniest admixture of doubt mixed in.

I would not call this doubt fearful, though. It's more caution, and awareness of my own fallibility- humility, if you will. There may be cases where fear would affect the expression of my belief, or lack of belief; but those would involve serious social sanctions against such expression, i.e. a Hitler Youth questioning Jewish inferiority. So I cannot see where *holding* or not holding some belief requires courage- I don't doubt that many Nazis, in their private thoughts, condemned the Final Solution.

Where courage comes in is when you state your beliefs, or lack thereof. Do you doubt that expressing disbelief in God in today's society takes a certain amount of courage?

Albert Cipriani

Dear Jobar,
You ask: No, I do not doubt that coming out of the atheistic closet into the light of today’s still marginally theistic society takes courage. But I do doubt that to become an atheist takes courage. Or do you think becoming a homosexual takes courage too?

Here’s the initial distinction I’m making: acting out one’s deviancy takes courage, not becoming deviant. To illustrate, the following examples of deviant behavior take courage:
1) Practicing homosexuality in a heterosexual community.
2) Practicing atheism in a theistic community.
3) Practicing Catholicism in King Henry VIII’s England.

But, depending upon one’s immediate social milieu, becoming a homosexual, atheist, or Catholic may be quite natural and effortless. I think we can agree on that much.

But if we factor out these normal societal tugs, we find that there remains a bias against theism. Ergo, one must swim up stream, intellectually speaking, to be a theist, whereas one need only drift down current to be an atheist. That’s why I say it takes more intellectual courage to be a theist than an atheist.

Becoming a theist is like being a mule who decides to pack its own mule pack. Why take on the superfluous load? Why burden your life for a potentially non-existent master? There’s a bias as strong as gravity against such behavior. Atheists comply with that bias, allowing their doubts to trump their hopes. Theists resist that bias, sustaining their hopes in spite of their doubts.

You are the free-range mules carrying no load for any potentially mythical being and kicking up your heels at us theistic beasts of burden. But even if you must consider us stupid for having taken on our theistic burdens, you ought at least to consider us courageously stupid. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Conchobar

Originally posted by Albert Cipriani
[B]Dear Jobar,[b]
You ask:

No, I do not doubt that coming out of the atheistic closet into the light of today’s still marginally theistic society takes courage. But I do doubt that to become an atheist takes courage. Or do you think becoming a homosexual takes courage too?

I agree. I didn't have any lack of courage in giving up my Catholic belief in God in primary school. It wasn't the same as saying that I knew gods of any kind didn't exist. In that sense I am an agnostic more than an atheist. But most people don't know the difference. It is just "some lad who doesn't believe in God." It took no courage to reach that decision because I couldn't really find a reason to believe. However it does take courage to come out in a religious society such as one finds in Ireland and America. All unbelievers are lumped together. Polls in America show that about half of people have negative opinions of atheists.

[b]Here’s the initial distinction I’m making: acting out one’s deviancy takes courage, not becoming deviant.[b/]

True. In America and Ireland, an Atheist or Agnostic can have no beliefs and it is no risk. We don't look different. We are not black, asian, or hang out a places like gay bars. We can fit in and pass unnoticed among the Christians who hate us, as long as we keep quiet about our beliefs. To openly state beliefs is to invite discrimination in job, business, and possibly endanger one's health. A doctor or small busnessman commits career suicide by exposing his beliefs in a small American or Ulster town. Many will refuse to ustilise your services. Many companies will not hire you if you mark 'unbeliever" or "atheist" on your application. I suppose that a parallel situation exists for gay people. But the gay person may have difficulty fitting in. To satisfy his/her sexual needs he needs to participate in risky activity that takes courage. Since an Agnostic practices no Agnostic rituals (there are none) he is not at risk unless he announces his lack of belief publically.

To illustrate, the following examples of deviant behavior take courage:
1) Practicing homosexuality in a heterosexual community.

It does take courage for them. There are dangerous and violent bigots about, especially in America. Gay people get tortured and killed by homophobes there.

2) Practicing atheism in a theistic community.

How does one practice atheism? Kneel and say an anti-prayer? The risk is to openly admit Atheism in a religiously bigotted community. One can and hundreds of thousands of Americans I suspect are closet Atheists. (Probably all Physicians, Scientists, high tech educated people.) Since there is no atheist practice, the Atheist works, has a wife and children, pays taxes, bowls on the bowling team. attends theatre regularly, or plays Uileann Pipes in the local pub. It is the realisation that unbelivers are second class citizens that they must accept or face financial disaster or physical assault in some cases. The American Bill of Rights does not protect one from hate.

3) Practicing Catholicism in King Henry VIII’s England.

And Oliver Cromwell's dictatorship over Ireland, and his murder of 1 million Irish-Catholic non-combattants in the war to crush the catholic fight for freedom.

But, depending upon one’s immediate social milieu, becoming a homosexual, atheist, or Catholic may be quite natural and effortless. I think we can agree on that much.

I agree. It is not necessarily "natural" but it is involuntary. We are our brains. Our brain programme determines if we are Atheists or Theists, and heterosexuals verses homosexuals. Catholicism is just one form of theim. And while you have no choice in being a theist. A theistic brain can be programmed by culture as catholic, protestant, fundamentalist(Christian or Islamic), Hiindu, etc.

But if we factor out these normal societal tugs, we find that there remains a bias against theism. Ergo, one must swim up stream, intellectually speaking, to be a theist, whereas one need only drift down current to be an atheist. That’s why I say it takes more intellectual courage to be a theist than an atheist.

Theists are the majority in the world 70% and 86% in America. You are totally wrong. In America, people are "god blessing you" and "Thank you Jaysus" stuff constantly without any consequences. It is acceptable. If one disagrees he is branded unpatriotic, anti-American. It takes absolutely no courage to be a theist. In fact, the opposite occurs. I know of large groups (secret of course) of American Doctors who fake Theism even to the extent of attending church and having religious symbols on the walls. They feel that discovery of their atheism would kill their pracitices. Social pressure in America is to be Theist in order to be considered patriotic and american. That is tremendous social pressure. It is the Atheist who takes the risk in belonging to an Atheist group unless he is protected by an academic instution. I have to scare you Yanks but that 10-15% Atheists you think you have is probably twice that number when you count the silent atheists.

Becoming a theist is like being a mule who decides to pack its own mule pack. Why take on the superfluous load? Why burden your life for a potentially non-existent master?

Because it is your best chance of survival by identifying with the powerful majority. In America the Presidency, Senate, House of Representatives, and Supreme Court are totally christian with a few token Jews.

There’s a bias as strong as gravity against such behavior. Atheists comply with that bias, allowing their doubts to trump their hopes. Theists resist that bias, sustaining their hopes in spite of their doubts.

I'm afraid you have it backwards. You folks control the government, the media, and by your economic control nearly the entire life of America. Atheists must survive like the mammals in the age of Dinosaurs. They must hide, run, and not be spotted by the powerful giants who rule the world, as theists rule America. Atheists live in the shadows, afraid that their lack of beliefs might be discovered. They discuss their lack of beliefs only in the bedroom with the wife at night, or close friends out on a fishing rowboat. We live in dread of the day they can identify us by DNA so we can be searched out by the Religious Police.

You are the free-range mules carrying no load for any potentially mythical being and kicking up your heels at us theistic beasts of burden.

True, but we then face the armed Christians with their hunting rifles and scopes waiting to take our heads home on trophy plaques. American Christians are probably the most heavily armed population in the entire world.

But even if you must consider us stupid for having taken on our theistic burdens, you ought at least to consider us courageously stupid. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

I am politically correct. I will not use the word stupid. I prefer rationally challenged. Sincerely, Conchobar the Agnostic Catholic

BTW: I am uncomfortable with your use of "deviant". Unless you mean that to include American Atheists, Irish agnostics, English Catholics, and homosexuals anywhere.

Conchobar

Albert C.

I think that deviant would also be applied to Catholics in such places in the Third World as Alabama, Mississippi, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

Conchobar, the sincere agnostic Irish Catholic.

John Page

Conch:

I know this is getting a little off topic but I don't think the humanist moral argument really works for atheism. Now I blame Oliver as much as anyone else for the current Ulster mess but my attitude is that the deeds we are debating are perpetrated by man against man.

BTW, are we defining deviany upward, here, or are we not that libertarian?

Cheers, John

Conchobar

Page writes:

I know this is getting a little off topic but I don't think the humanist moral argument really works for atheism.

I don't even know the humanist argument. I argue the evolutionary argument which I do understand. I am not a humanist. I have no creed.

Now I blame Oliver as much as anyone else for the current Ulster mess but my attitude is that the deeds we are debating are perpetrated by man against man.

Definitely. Unlike hyperreligious Americans who kill for God individually. Irish gunmen kill for "country". Irish nationalists kill for Ireland. Unionists kill for the Queen. Catholicism is just the rallying label of the Irish, and Protestantism is the rallying identity for the pro-British. Yet I know individually, Irish Catholics often know next to nothing about Catholicism and many are agnostics or atheists identifying as Catholics. Protestants have a minority of fanatics like Paisley but many of the blokes who do the fighting have little or no interest in theology other than as a label. It is equivalent of the Green = Catholic = Irish versus Orange = Protestant = British/unionist.

BTW, are we defining deviany upward, here, or are we not that libertarian?

In America, religious identification preceeds patriotosm, nationalism, and national loyalty. An Irishman is Irish first, Nationalist second, Catholic third. He is Catholic even if he doesn't believe in God. I am one of them. In America, a person is Christian first, citizen of a state second, and American Nationalist third (except in war perhaps.)

Conchobar.

BTW what is the deal with all of this secret post or blocked bollocks? Am I on your ignore list or are you on mine? I did not know that I had such a option.

Wyz_sub10

To begin with, 12-year olds are not mindless. Perhaps you forget what you were like at age 12.

The point was not whether the content was valid. The point was that it takes a certain amount of courage to admit to yourself something that is less than satisfying. Admitting to yourself that you are not very attractive, although you'd love to believe otherwise, takes courage. (Especially if everyone else expects you to believes this, and will ostracize you if you do not)

No straw man here.

The dilemma relates to "either you are a believer and are courageous, or are not a believer and are not courageous." That is a false dilemma. Lack of belief and courage (or vice-versa) are not mutually exclusive.

You say - "Fear of our believes being in vain prevents us from believing". I do not accept the validity of this statement. Lack of evidence and/or rationale keeps me from believing. Not the fear that I will be proven wrong or that I will have wasted my time. It is true to say that one may not believe for lack or evidence, ergo the idea that the belief will be in vain. But it is not an issue of courage any more than accepting quantum mechanics is an issue of courage.

My comment was simply to show that courage and lack of belief are not mutally exclusive, a view you seem to share. So why try to marry the two?

I might have said it differently, but I do indeed spend time here to better understand the views (and character) of others. Also, I spend time here for fellowship, to engage in stimulating discussion, to challenge my peers, etc.

Albert Cipriani

Dear Wyz,
Maybe so. But I bet all those flies with their wings ripped off haven’t forgot.

Yes. Likewise, it takes courage to believe in that which you cannot prove, for no one wants to be wrong and not having proof comes dangerously close to a working definition of being wrong. The “something” we are euphemistically referring to here is God.

I’ve shown you mine; now you show me yours. Why is it “less than satisfying” for you to admit that God does not exist? In what way would you be more satisfied if you could know God did exist? – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

diana

Good evening, Albert.

It was very difficult for me to admit to myself that I really just didn't believe. There are many people who would say the same of their leaving the faith. The degree of difficulty of leaving the faith seems directly proportionate to the amount of religious indoctrination you've undergone. If you were raised in one of the fire and brimstone deep South denominations like me, you might better understand how difficult it is to admit to yourself that you don't believe in God.

Intellectual realizations are not quickly followed by emotional ones. The emotional transition takes much longer. Many atheists (leaving cults such as the one I grew up in) will still, deep down, fear a hell they don't even believe in for quite some time after their intellectual realization that they honestly don't believe in the God who supposedly created it. Emotions tend to be quite irrational that way. And facing such overpowering fear takes a great deal of courage.

I would imagine that the homosexual thing works the same way. The more deeply your subculture has pounded into you that homosexuality is unnatural, disgusting, dispicable and worthy of contempt if not death, the more difficult it would be to admit to yourself that you're gay. Try to imagine the revulsion such a person would feel for himself that he must, at some point, have the courage to face.

I see what you mean. I think both take courage, though, just in different aspects. I daresay most theists don't give their acceptance of God's existence a second thought, though. For these, believing doesn't require courage.

But for those who are more self-aware and more philosophical, such as yourself, believing in the light of what you know takes a great deal of courage.

Atheism, at least in my experience, has never consisted of drifting along with the flow, as you seem to think it does. It required a great deal of research and a lot of guts to ask questions and to continue to do so in light of the non-answers I got. It is a giant, seemingly insurmountable obstacle between me and my family. My integrity is somehow open to question solely because I do not believe in a god. Some people seem genuinely frightened when confronted with a person who doesn't profess a belief in a god (when questioned). And always, there are the inevitable looks of pity for the poor, braindamaged person some people think I am, spiced with the healthy dose of "You'll find out when you're burning in hell forever!" gleeful sneers I endure.

Please do not tell me being an atheist is easy.

d