Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Talulah · 02-28-2002, 07:33 PM

excreationist,

Thanks so much for the links. I read the particular article that you suggested. It was great and very helpful, I will read those passages that it listed in more detail. The site seems to have a lot of good material on it to read.

Paradisedreams2 · 02-28-2002, 08:49 PM

Maybe these verses are all pure chance and they just happened to fit. - What do you think?

Whats the chances of these fitting??

Isaiah 42:19 Who [is] blind, but my SERVANT? or deaf, as my MESSENGER [that] I SENT? who [is] blind as [he that is] PERFECT, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
If this is not Christ I don't know who it is because HE DID THE FOLLOWING (according to Christians)... next verse
(Isaiah 42:20)Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

So the person this is speaking of IS Christ (it must be because He did the above right?)
He open the eyes of the blind right? He opened their ears right? made the deaf to hear, the blind, dumb, and deaf are ALL seen as what Christ supposedly did.

THE VERSE MUST BE HIM.

look... When he casts these things out these are seen as being of "Satan" and "devils"

But it is God who makes the VERY THINGS being cast out! (interesting) look...

Exodus 4:11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? HAVE NOT I the LORD?

If Christ says, "If the BLIND lead the blind won't THEY BOTH FALL INTO THE PIT? (interesting... what pit?) Apparently God is choosing to show His "Perfect Servant" as BLIND.

(This perfect example of a SEEMING contradiction christions can't see, but what a marvelous thing to think about!)

In conclusion Both Christ(a blind messenger of God) AND the follower of Christ end up in a pit according to HIS OWN WORDS.... This is too fun for words! But something to chew on

Back up a bit to (Isaiah 42:18) God is adressing the blind and deaf in relation to this whole awesome picture.

Tell me, tell me if you know!
Kim

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]

Talulah · 03-01-2002, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Isaiah 42:19 Who [is] blind, but my SERVANT? or deaf, as my MESSENGER [that] I SENT? who [is] blind as [he that is] PERFECT, and blind as the LORD'S servant?
If this is not Christ I don't know who it is because HE DID THE FOLLOWING (according to Christians)... next verse
(Isaiah 42:20)Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

OH MY GOD....the bible is right...people really CAN make it say whatever they want. Do you really think that Isaiah 42:20 is talking about Christ???? There is no mysterious mumbo-jumbo to this verse, it simply says that people willfully don't see and hear. I have not read the context but I would assume that it is refering to the messenger (Isiah) and the people not heading his warnings.

excreationist · 03-01-2002, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Talulah:
excreationist,

Thanks so much for the links. I read the particular article that you suggested. It was great and very helpful, I will read those passages that it listed in more detail. The site seems to have a lot of good material on it to read.

Yeah... the Christianity section has lots of stuff like the history of the Sunday/Sabbath thing, history of Christmas, Easter, about Satan and demons, suicide, slavery, etc...

Kosh · 03-01-2002, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Talulah:


OH MY GOD....the bible is right...people really CAN make it say whatever they want. Do you really think that Isaiah 42:20 is talking about Christ???? There is no mysterious mumbo-jumbo to this verse, it simply says that people willfully don't see and hear. I have not read the context but I would assume that it is refering to the messenger (Isiah) and the people not heading his warnings.

ROTFL. Not bad for a "newbie"!
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Talulah · 03-01-2002, 07:37 AM

Hey, what can I say, I guess all those hours of indoctrination weren't a loss after all.

Tribalgroove · 03-01-2002, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidH:
Why would people of that time believe in the ressurection of the dead, surely that would be totally obserd to them! The reason they beleived was that the preaching was accompainied by miracles, people where healed, the lame walked, the dead where raised to life.
There can be no other explanation of why the Christian faith started - people believed because they saw that it was true.

DavidH, I think you need to reassess your evaluation. Have you even investigated or researched the possibilty of other explanations, or just assumed the one you hold is true because it is all you have.

You should recognize that people in the modern age take a great many things for granted. We all tend to view history through the lense of modern bias. Recognize that contemporary thinking inherently has a healthy and liberal dose of skepticism to temper its conclusions. We have inherented this trait cumulatively from the development of logic, reason and the scientific method, etc...

Therefore it is entirely logical and consistent that a contemporary christ event would be considered absurd. However, ancient peoples, especially the poor and uneducated, had no such notion of logical skepticism and appeals to their emotions and their hopeful speculations about the future would hold far more influence.

I urge you to read the following link:
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/kooks.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/kooks.html</a>

See also: modern phsychology

Paradisedreams2 · 03-01-2002, 07:51 AM

ROFL!!!!!! Christ WAS blind lol! That IS the whole point.

How can it be speaking of someone other then Him? The sign of the messiah was to open the eyes of the blind etc. Even Christ said, "Go report what you've seen, the blind see, etc".

CHRIST WAS BLINDDDDDDDDDDDDDD.

I see this as an awesome paradox. But it is a "real" stumper for the christian who says he was not. If the "Sword" (in zechariah)

"Awake of Sword AGAINST my shepherd against Him who is CLOSE TO ME" speaks of Christ because as As Judgement proceded into the midst among the disciples to strike Him, the verse in the old testament is referenced in the footnote

So it goes like this... Strike the shepherd (still in Zech.) and the sheep will scatter. This footnote is seen at the time the disciples FLED.

So, the verse everyone seems to take personally which is...

HE who is NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST ME. This is a subtle clue as to who its speaking of. Gods Sword (His words) are AGAINST CHRIST.

Thus the picture in (Zech) To strike His Shepherd. The Sword is awaken against HIS SHEPHERD.

A divided its Kingdom cannot stand. Thus hath an end.

So Christ (seeing) really did not observe or see what he was doing. Casting out the blind, dumb, deaf so called Spirits. But these seen as Satan or "devils" were the very thing God said He made. So Christ could not see that Satan is God.

When He said to Peter "Get hence behind me for thou has not the things of God in mind but that of men is a clue.

Heres an even better one lol!

If anyone accepts anyone I send he accepts me.

Christ said to Judas, "Go, what you are about to do do quickly"

Thus you can say, "He sent Him and they accepted Judas and therefore recieved HIM"

Don't cha just love it?

I got to go to a fundamentalist board lol!

Paradisedreams2 · 03-01-2002, 08:14 AM

Exodus 4:11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? HAVE NOT I the LORD?

Ok so if God made these things and everyone else thinks they are of Satan. They are indeed right. Theres no difference between the two.

Who the heck do you think God was talking to in the garden (a similitude) He was speaking with the Serpent (who is both crafty and wise)

They have become like "us" knowing good and evil through the law (hmmmm who gave the law in christian doctrine?) comes the knowledge of sin.

The "We" is both sides of the coin (wise as the serpent, innocent as the dove) The two are "One".

lol! So which is TRUE???? Good example here. Here GOD MOVES David against them and its SATAN! (coincidence? I think not)

You got to love this!

2Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and HE MOVED DAVID AGAINST THEM to say, Go, number Israel and Judah

1Chronicles 21:1 And SATAN STOOD UP AGAINST Israel, AND PROVOKED David to number Israel.

Is it a contradiction or True? I see the two being "one" in purpose and goal but to most Christians this is an outrage to even consider.

Then comes the "circular logic" of "getting around the possibility"

The squirming and so forth to explain away the obvious.

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]

Kosh · 03-01-2002, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paradisedreams2:
ROFL!!!!!! Christ WAS blind lol!

Heres an even better one lol!

I got to go to a fundamentalist board lol!

"I think maybe you do not know the meaning of
that word" - Princess Bride

02-28-2002, 08:49 PM	#32
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	Maybe these verses are all pure chance and they just happened to fit. - What do you think? Whats the chances of these fitting?? Isaiah 42:19 Who [is] blind, but my SERVANT? or deaf, as my MESSENGER [that] I SENT? who [is] blind as [he that is] PERFECT, and blind as the LORD'S servant? If this is not Christ I don't know who it is because HE DID THE FOLLOWING (according to Christians)... next verse (Isaiah 42:20)Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. So the person this is speaking of IS Christ (it must be because He did the above right?) He open the eyes of the blind right? He opened their ears right? made the deaf to hear, the blind, dumb, and deaf are ALL seen as what Christ supposedly did. THE VERSE MUST BE HIM. look... When he casts these things out these are seen as being of "Satan" and "devils" But it is God who makes the VERY THINGS being cast out! (interesting) look... Exodus 4:11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? HAVE NOT I the LORD? If Christ says, "If the BLIND lead the blind won't THEY BOTH FALL INTO THE PIT? (interesting... what pit?) Apparently God is choosing to show His "Perfect Servant" as BLIND. (This perfect example of a SEEMING contradiction christions can't see, but what a marvelous thing to think about!) In conclusion Both Christ(a blind messenger of God) AND the follower of Christ end up in a pit according to HIS OWN WORDS.... This is too fun for words! But something to chew on Back up a bit to (Isaiah 42:18) God is adressing the blind and deaf in relation to this whole awesome picture. Tell me, tell me if you know! Kim [ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

03-01-2002, 08:14 AM	#39
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	Exodus 4:11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? HAVE NOT I the LORD? Ok so if God made these things and everyone else thinks they are of Satan. They are indeed right. Theres no difference between the two. Who the heck do you think God was talking to in the garden (a similitude) He was speaking with the Serpent (who is both crafty and wise) They have become like "us" knowing good and evil through the law (hmmmm who gave the law in christian doctrine?) comes the knowledge of sin. The "We" is both sides of the coin (wise as the serpent, innocent as the dove) The two are "One". lol! So which is TRUE???? Good example here. Here GOD MOVES David against them and its SATAN! (coincidence? I think not) You got to love this! 2Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and HE MOVED DAVID AGAINST THEM to say, Go, number Israel and Judah 1Chronicles 21:1 And SATAN STOOD UP AGAINST Israel, AND PROVOKED David to number Israel. Is it a contradiction or True? I see the two being "one" in purpose and goal but to most Christians this is an outrage to even consider. Then comes the "circular logic" of "getting around the possibility" The squirming and so forth to explain away the obvious. [ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

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02-28-2002, 07:33 PM	#31
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	excreationist, Thanks so much for the links. I read the particular article that you suggested. It was great and very helpful, I will read those passages that it listed in more detail. The site seems to have a lot of good material on it to read.

03-01-2002, 07:37 AM	#36
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	Hey, what can I say, I guess all those hours of indoctrination weren't a loss after all.

03-01-2002, 07:51 AM	#38
Paradisedreams2 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 113	ROFL!!!!!! Christ WAS blind lol! That IS the whole point. How can it be speaking of someone other then Him? The sign of the messiah was to open the eyes of the blind etc. Even Christ said, "Go report what you've seen, the blind see, etc". CHRIST WAS BLINDDDDDDDDDDDDDD. I see this as an awesome paradox. But it is a "real" stumper for the christian who says he was not. If the "Sword" (in zechariah) "Awake of Sword AGAINST my shepherd against Him who is CLOSE TO ME" speaks of Christ because as As Judgement proceded into the midst among the disciples to strike Him, the verse in the old testament is referenced in the footnote So it goes like this... Strike the shepherd (still in Zech.) and the sheep will scatter. This footnote is seen at the time the disciples FLED. So, the verse everyone seems to take personally which is... HE who is NOT WITH ME IS AGAINST ME. This is a subtle clue as to who its speaking of. Gods Sword (His words) are AGAINST CHRIST. Thus the picture in (Zech) To strike His Shepherd. The Sword is awaken against HIS SHEPHERD. A divided its Kingdom cannot stand. Thus hath an end. So Christ (seeing) really did not observe or see what he was doing. Casting out the blind, dumb, deaf so called Spirits. But these seen as Satan or "devils" were the very thing God said He made. So Christ could not see that Satan is God. When He said to Peter "Get hence behind me for thou has not the things of God in mind but that of men is a clue. Heres an even better one lol! If anyone accepts anyone I send he accepts me. Christ said to Judas, "Go, what you are about to do do quickly" Thus you can say, "He sent Him and they accepted Judas and therefore recieved HIM" Don't cha just love it? I got to go to a fundamentalist board lol!

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