winstonjen

And when 'humbled' DOES mean rape, it is a clear-cut case of sugar-coating.

The bible DOES condone it, as has been shown many times before -

Man rapes woman.
Man is forced to marry woman and pay the father of the bride.
Man can never divorce the woman.
Woman is forced to marry a rapist.

Ed, WHERE ARE THE WOMAN'S RIGHTS IN THE BIBLE?!?!?

Jack the Bodiless

There are PLENTY. Fish/amphibian transitionals, reptile/mammal transitionals (therapsids), reptile/bird transitionals like Archaeopteryx...

You are merely repeating a creationist lie.
Many are also geocentrists. But they SHOULD all be geocentrists, and flat-Earthers. They're not: they claim to be Biblical inerrantists, but they are hypocrites if they reject parts of the Bible that they don't like.
Genesis clearly refers to "evenings and mornings" between the creation days. Only an apologist would try to find an obscure "metaphorical" interpretation of what the author so clearly meant. Ross is extremely biased.

But perhaps you will explain why YOU reject his interpretation of the Flood? He's more qualified than YOU, right?
The Bible doesn't specifically state that the Earth is flat, but that's because this "obvious fact" would have been known and accepted by everyone: there was no rival theory that the Earth was round.

But I have given you MANY verses that refer to this worldview.
The Firmament is a barrier: it separates "the waters above from the waters below". The Hebrews thought it was a solid dome.
You have contradicted yourself. You have just admitted that the Bible teaches that rain falls through holes in the sky.

This is what the Hebrews believed, but it is wrong. Yet it's in the Bible. So the Bible teaches a false model of the world, in which a solid barrier separates the waters above from the waters below. This is the function of the Firmament, as the Bible clearly states. So the "windows of Heaven" must be in the Firmament.

Jack the Bodiless

Hugh Ross on Noah's Flood:

A Bridge Over Troubled Waters

NOGO

This is what the Bible says.

[31] Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

Ok, Ed, you claim that verse 31 says that the pharisees are plotting to kill Jesus just as their fathers did.

I say that verse 31 says that they are accusing themselves just for being children of thos who killed the prophets.

Now you claim that all or most scholars are on your side. Go ahead Ed, quote any scholar who is not a fundamentalist like yourself who agrees with you.


Ed, there is no correlation between "Exactly" and the rest of the sentence.

Exactly means what I stated, that is
"admitting to be sons of those who murdered the prophets, they are testifying against themselves. "

Now compare this to what you stated.

"because they were planning to kill Jesus and persecute his disciples, who were God's new testament prophets. "

There is absolutely no relation between these two statements.

Jesus must have trouble expressing himself.
He means "you are just like your fathers because you are planning to kill me"

and he actually says "you are saying that you are the son of those who killed the prophets, therefore you are testifying against yourselves. Fill up in the guilt of your fathers"

No wonder I don't believe. I have to learn to twist everything that is said just like you do, Ed. Then I will believe.

I agree that the passage is pretty clear. No amount of greek and hebrew nor ancient history will change what the text says into what you want it to say. But I am willing to read non-fundie scholars who agree with your interpretation. I eagerly await your quotes and references.


Nonsense, if that is true then it would have been possible that Jesus came to earth to save mankind but nobody was willing to kill him. He would have died an old man and the whole project would have been scrapped. We need to thank these people for what they did. They were part of our salvation.

NOGO

Verses 13,14 and 15 do not point to any resurrection.
At least not to anybody that can read. But to one who twists any plain and clear text into anything he wants I guess that this should not present any difficulty.

Verse 7 to 12 says quite clearly what Job thinks. There is hope for a tree but none for man.

Verse 13 is a wish. A wish to be remembered. Note the word "would". Yes Job wishes for life after death.

Verse 14,15 and 16 read as follows

14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.
15 "You will call, and I will answer You;
You will long for the work of Your hands.
16 "For now You number my steps,
You do not observe my sin.

Verse 15 refers to "all the days of my struggle ..."
God will call and Job will answer. This is not after death as you would have it.

The second part of 15 is the key to understanding this.
It says "You will long for the work of Your hands"

What work of God's hands are we talking about here?
If you answer this question correctly then you will know that the "God will call and Job will answer" is during his lifetime.

Verse 16, 17 etc, tells us what the second part of verse 15 is saying.

For now you number my days ...
you do not see my sin
BUT
just like the mountains crumbles away
... So You destroy man's hope.

20 "You forever overpower him and he departs;
You change his appearance and send him away.
21 "His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it;
Or they become insignificant, but he does not perceive it.
22 "But his body pains him,
And he mourns only for himself."

This is the work of God's hands in verse 15 ... Job's death ... Verses 21 and 22 also answers the question in verse 14.

NOGO

You really have trouble reading, Ed.
You read
"he would allow them to be raped, he does not cause it directly"

But the Bible says ...

2 Sam 12
11 "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.
12 'Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.'"

I will raise up evil against you ...
Note it is called evil not justice or anything like that, but EVIL.

I will even TAKE your wives before your eyes and GIVE them to your companions.

So, Ed, how can you say that God ALLOWS it to happen when it says
I will raise evil
I will take your wives
I will give them to your companions

This does not sound like ALLOWING it to happen. Once again, Ed, you read what you want where you want it. What the Bible actually says is irrelevant to you.

Nonsense. As I told you before this is not an example of the consequences of one's actions.

If I drive too fast and I get into an accident and my children are killed then that is a consequence of my action. There is a direct relationship between the action and the consequence. No one will ever say that my children were punished because I was driving too fast.

David killed a man and seduced his wife. This is not related in anyway to his wives being seduced except behaps in the twisted mind of some priest. This was meant as a punishment to David.

As such the person doing the punishment choses which punishment to give. In this case the punishment was just envisioned as a possible punishment. This clealy shows that there is no relationship between the David's crime and his wives being raped.

Irrelevant!
Everybody should be punished for his or her own sin.
In this case it is David's sin that we are talking about and the raping of his wives is brought up not as a punishment for the wives but as a punishment for David.


[QUOTE]
nogo
What about the wives? Women are just not that important! There is no such thing as a crime against a woman. A raped woman is a crime against her husband or her father but not against her.
Ed:
No, see Deut. 22 and my commentary about it to Jack on page 17.
[/QUOTE[
You do not have a case here, Ed. And since JTB has answered you already I will leave it.

But the law is the law. The law is not there just for God. Observing the law tells people that justice is made and is for everybody. God can forgive but it was not he who was hurt by the fact that David broke the law. Urriah was hurt, and the community must know that the law stands and justice is made. For that David must die because that is what God's law says.

You mean that God allowed the child to be born not as any person is born but as a tool to punish David. So this child is not a person in his own right. This idea has potential, Ed. Maybe many people are not real people but are simply there to amuse others.

The child may have had some horrible genetic defect that would have caused its life to be a life of terrible suffering so God just took him.

So, Ed, you agree with abortion for deformed children.

"Or he may have grown up to commit terrible crimes because of his unseemly origin, but instead God took him as child so he would not have gone to hell for his crimes as an adult. "

You have such a twisted mind, Ed. If God would purge the world of evil people just as they are born through illness then there would be no evil. David would not have killed Urriah because David would have died as a child before he committed the crime.

But then the question is this ...
In the case of "deformed child" and "the future criminal" why did God wait till the child was born? He could have stopped the conception.

So the child is not truly innocent but David who committed two crimes is let off easy and you call that a just God.

NOGO

I realized too late that I did not explicitely explain the verses in Job. We now have a 2 hour window in which to edit posts. So here is the part that I missed on the Job issue.


Verses 7 to 12 There is hope for a tree but none for a man

12 So man lies down and does not rise.

13 Job wishes that God wait until his wrath is gone and then remembers him.

14 But unfortunately man does not live again.
All the days of my life I will wait for the moment of my death.

15 (During Job's life) God will call and Job will answer.
(During Job's life) God will long to put an end to Job's life.
16 Until then
God numbers Job's steps
God does not see his sin.
17 Job's sin is sealed (that is why God allows him to live some more)

18 But as mountains crumble away
19 as water wears away stones,
So God destroys man's hope.

20 God overpowers man, changes his appearance and sends him away forever.
21 Man no longer peceives anything.
22 Man mourns only for himself (this is in sheol)



If you want to know more about Sheol read this

Ecc 9
2 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
7 Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works.
8 Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head.
9 Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.


There is one fate that aways all. Everybody goes to Sheol where there is NO activity, NO planning, NO knowledge and No wisdom. Also note verse 5 which says that the dead know nothing.

This is what Job is talking about.

Ed

This is called phenomenological language, just like that which is in your newspaper everyday about the "rising" and "setting" of the sun. Your newspaper doesnt believe that the sun is actually rising out of the horizon. Neither does the verse mean that the sun and moon are actually at these locations. Also nothing here teaches a flat earth.

This was a song, therefore in poetic language. No flat earth here.

Another song and more poetic language. No flat earth here.

Again Job is primarily made up of poetic language. No flat earth teaching here.

See above.

The psalms are all written in poetic language. So no flat earth here.


This is just a common expression still used today to refer to the four geographic directions.

This is either a reference to the horizon or it could be a vision that Isaiah had that showed God and the earth in silhouette, thereby making the round earth appear to be a circle. But again this is written in poetic language, not literal prose. Therefore no teaching of flat earth here.


See above.

These were dreams and visions, not reality. Visions are just symbols of realities.

More phenomenological language, see above.


Revelation is apocalyptic literature, which is almost entirely symbolic.

The bible does not teach the earth is flat as I demonstrated above and I have yet to be convinced that the flood was local.

You have not provided any evidence or scholars that say otherwise while I have, so I feel my point still stands, so I guess we have reached an impasse on this issue.

See above about how I have provided scholarly evidence and you have not.


No, the situation does change, because then my direct lineage is established and that is what the jews were concerned with.

Just because the ancient hebrews may have been the only ones that used it doesn't invalidate it.

End of part II of my response.

Rousseau_CHN

Atheism as a worldview, not possible. We need something more creative than just denouncing God.

Shadownought

I don't even have the staying power to read this thread.