NOGO

As I said the only way that you can interpret the verses as you do is if you ignore the link with the previous verses. But, is it a reaonable interpretation.

Can you equate the "kingdom" to the transfiguration. Jesus says in several places that the Kingdom of God is near. Was he talking about the transfiguration?

"Kingdom" is clearly associated with the end of the world in MT 24:30-31
Where do you see it associated with the transfiguration?

Paul says that we will not all die some of us will be changed. First the dead will rise incorruptible and WE WILL BE CHANGED.

I am paraphrasing but the message is clear Paul expected to be alive when this would happen and he was not talking about the tranfiguration.

NOGO

Perhaps one final point.

"Verily, I say unto you"

This appears quite often in the NT text.
I could be wrong but it is always used to conclude with emphasis something that has been said.
I do not recall seen it used to start a new topic.
Perhaps you can show me a case where this type of phrase clearly starts a new topic.
Perhaps other debaters can comment on this.

Repeat, I could be wrong on this one.

Thank you.

thedoc

Another perspective on the topic NOGO.
<a href="http://members.truepath.com/tocome/Matt.html" target="_blank">http://members.truepath.com/tocome/Matt.html</a>

I hope someone can present some further evidence about using the statement "Verily I say unto you". I once heard someone compare it to saying, "Hear ye, Hear ye". Almost as if it were used to get your attention just before an important statement was about to be made. My Greek dictionary has this for the meaning of verily. amen, [adv.] amen, the truth;a formula of solemn expression of certainty.

NOGO

As far as I can see the link that you point to just restates your point of view and does not answer any of my points

Right! Allow me to pursue this line of thinking.
If these verses were the only Scripture we had, I would agree that it is a toss-up as to whether it belongs with end of MT 16 or begining of MT 17. However, MT 16, MT 17 and Peter's second letter are not the only Scripture that we have.

I will go through some but not all verses which clearly show that early Christians expected the Kingdom of God to occur within their lifetime after which I will discuss the implications on MT 16:28.

I have already discussed MT 24 in this very thread. I would encourage whoever missed it to go back and read it before continuing.

In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking in private with his disciples and he is answering two questions.
When will the temple be desctroyed [1] and what will be signs of Jesus' return at the end of the world [2] ?
Luke makes it clear that the armies surrounding Jerusalem and then trampling on Jerusalem can be no other that the Roman armies in the year 70. These are the tribulations referred to in Mt24 which answers the first question.
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days ..." is the end of the world
So Jesus is saying that his second coming and the end of the world is to come right after the destruction of the temple. This anwers the second question.

Throughout MT 24 Jesus says things like
a) See to it that no one misleads you
b) You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars
c) Then they will deliver you to tribulation
d) Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
e) But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near (in Luke)
f) Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or "There He is,' do not believe him.
g) So, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Jesus is speaking to his disciples (the you above, emphasis mine). He is answering their questions. He warns them of things to come and expects THEM to see and experience all the things that he tells them. Item (g) above is as clear as anything can be.

This is already quite clear and convincing but there is much more.

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: ""Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
...
23 ... for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 10 needs no comment.

So far we have seen what Jesus said on the subject.
Now the question is what did the disciples understand by what Jesus said above?
Did they understand that the Kingdom of God would happen in more than 2000 years or did they understand that it would happen during their lifetime?

1 Corinthians 15- 51:52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Note that Paul here is saying that "the dead will be raised imperishable" while the living "WE will be changed". (emphasis mine)
Paul includes himself in the living otherwise he would have said. "We will be raised imperishable and those you are living at that time will be changed". Paul fully expected to be alive when it would happened

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

James 5:8
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

1 Peter 4:7
The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.


Some people will have you believe that all this is about an event that has not taken place yet after 1900 years.

But there is more...

Here is a before and after picture.

Before
1 Thess 4 14-17
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

After
2 Thessalonian 2:1-3
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The difference between the before and after picture is that so much time had elapsed that people began to wonder and therefore an exaplanation become necessary. I call it damage control. The day of Christ is still "at hand" but a new twist has been added
"for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first"
Now if this was what God intended all alone then why didn't Paul say so in his first epistle.
The new condition added here was supposed to explain why Jesus did not return yet but as 1John 2:18 puts it ...

1 John 2:18
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

the condition also came and went and nothing happened.

Notice again the "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord"
Paul expects that he and others that he is speaking to will be around when Jesus returns.


Hebrews 9
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


So Jesus sacrificed himself "at the comsummation of the ages"
Matthew 24: 3
Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?''


Note the same words are used in Matthew 24 "end of age" and Hebrews 9:26 "at the consummation of the ages".
That these both mean the end of the world is obvious. In Matthew 24 the words are associated with the second coming. In Hebews 9:26 it is the only interpretation which makes sense in the logic of the author and what he is trying to say. The logic is as follows: Jesus could not have come earlier and do as the high priest does each year offering blood to God for redemption of sin. If he did he would have to suffer over and over again. Instead He came once at the end of the world to put away sin with the sacrifice of Himself.
No other interpretation will do here but the "end of the world" if one is to respect the logical of the writer's arguement.
See also MT 13:39 "... and the harvest is the end of the age;" Here Jesus is explaning the parable of the tares of the field.

So where does all this lead us concerning MT16:28
If the disciples of Jesus expected his return within their lifetime then MT16:28 says that some of them will actually see the Kingdom of God. Do we need to speculate as to whether it was the transfiguration or the actual thing?

It is meaningless to talk about how Peter remembered the transfiguration after Jesus' death when we have such good evidence that they all understood that the real Kingdom of God was to occur before their generation passed so that they expected that some of them would see it while still living. Remember Paul's statements (1 Cor 15:51) "we will not all sleep" and 1 Thess 4 14-17.

Here is a last item.
2 Peter 3: 3-4
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.''

So some were already mocking the fact that the Fathers since fell asleep and all continues as before. Another indication that the generation passed and what was expected did not happen.
Later in the same chapter ..

v8 And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

The ultimate excuse!
Mockers (legitimate critics as far as I am concerned) were correct back then as they are today.


This statement is a case of the charcoal calling the kettle black.

Reorganized the text with some corrections

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>