Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vibr8gKiwi · 10-09-2002, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
Perhaps. But I wouldn't mind, nor would I be surprised, if I stood alone in these forums.

You do. Other trolls have been removed.

Coragyps · 10-09-2002, 04:49 PM

Hey,...uh,... Van? As soon as you've finished destroying all opposing arguments here, could you come back to E/C? You owe a bunch of folks a whole bunch of answers.

Doubting Didymus · 10-09-2002, 04:53 PM

I strongly second that. I wouldn't expect you to carry on two large converstions at once, but when you finish here, we (or at least some of us) would not be opposed to your return.

You would be mistaken to think that the debates you started there are settled.

Doubting Didymus · 10-09-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

But I wouldn't mind, nor would I be surprised, if I stood alone in these forums.

What do you mean by that? That you would not mind if everyone here just completely ignored you?

Your idea of the ideal bulletin board seems to be one with only you in it, striding up and down the corridors of the various empty forums shouting 'I am unnopposed!'

Quote:

I am, however, encourage that there are a few here: I am presently engaged with several people who are reasonable and respectful.

Your policy of ignoring anyone who is even slightly caustic is no guaruantee that the posters who are left are the most reasonable, the most logical, the most intelligent or knowledgable. The screening process you so rigorously apply will only leave you the most polite people. Therefore there is a high possibilty that you might simply be ignoring some very important points simply because they come from people you dislike. Far from facilitating a better conversation, this is sure to stunt and stifle any meaningful debate.

Imagine if we each made a similar policy of sketching up an ignore list of eceryone who had been in caustic disagreement with us. That childish action would make discussion impossible.

Thus I implore you to develop a thicker skin. Try ignoring the insults instead of the people. Above all, if you desire respect, answer questions when they are repeatedly put forward, or at least give a reason for refusing. A few improvements on your part might just help pave the way to a more civil, intelligent conversation.

Jayhawker Soule · 10-09-2002, 06:03 PM

I respectfully suggest that Vanderzyden fully warrants dismissal to the RRP Forums ...

Radorth · 10-09-2002, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Care for a list of contradictions that cannot be explained this way? The scientific method is to tackle the HARD contradictions -- not the easiest ones one can find.

Bring em' on baby. We did about 10 "hard" ones in the last month, I thought. The score is 7 to 3 in favor of the Christians right now, if we are generous. Try to keep up. Come to think of it, only two were hard and this is one of them. Make that 7-2-1, Christians.

Quote:

But I'll focus now on EASY-to explain contradiction. I would maintain that even the APPEARANCE of a contradiction is evidence that the Bible is not perfect... and therefore not divine!

Ha! And who would determine which had such an appearance? Some infallible atheist?

I'm curious about the definition of "rant" and "preaching" around here. There seems about an equal amount on bioth sides, but the Christians alone seem to get accused of it.

Radorth

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]

Baidarka · 10-09-2002, 06:57 PM

Well Vanderzyden punked out after giving his lame contrived apologetic. He refused to answer any challenges and then declared himself the winner.
Well far be it for me to gloat over such a hollow Victory.
I’m switching sides because I’m bored and I think that Vanderzyden needs help.

OK here goes. Judas had a twin brother who was also named Judas as a matter of fact all the men in his family were named Judas. Anyway there was a good Judas and a bad Judas. Well the good Judas was one of the disciples. But the Bad Judas was a highwayman along with Jesus Barabas(who incedently was the bad Jesus). Well the Bad Jesus kidnapped the good twin and locked him in the closet(how terribly evil)Then the bad Judas went to the last supper pretending to be his brother. Well the evil twin turned Jesus in to the bad guys for the reward money. Meanwhile the good Judas escapes from the closet. Runs to the temple to find out what his brother did. He finds out that the Bad Judas was paid to turn Jesus in so he throws some money at the evil priests and yells here’s your money you evil bad guys. He decides to kill himself to protect his Brother so he hangs himself in despair. Meanwhile the evil Judas parties all day and all night with his ill gotten gains buys some land and trips and falls in a drunken stupor burps and bursts open and expires.
There we are! Now you all must admit that I can harmonize at least as well as Vanderzyden. I’ll be happy to answer any Question and defend this true story till my last breath. Take that you skeptics!

leonarde · 10-09-2002, 07:58 PM

Posted by Sojourner553:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:

But I still maintain there is NO CONTRADICTION. No one is justified in
claiming a contradiction simply for lack of detail, especially when considering multiple, summary accounts.

To be persuasive, you must do more than claim a contradiction. You must
demonstrate it. What is necessary from you, K, is a refutation of my argument. If you or anyone else cannot provide one, then it is reasonable to put this particular issue to rest, safely declaring that there is no contradiction.

Vanderzyden

First of all: you have chosen an EASY contradiction -- which can be explained by merely insisting "they both happened" -- as opposed to one of the contradictions that exist that cannot be explained away in this manner (ie they "both" happened).

My understanding is that Vanderzyden did not choose this
particular contradiction: the subject was touched
on in one thread, then someone issued a "challenge" in a second thread, but because I and
some others became entangled in the second thread
and Van wanted a fresh start he began this third
thread. (The second thread is "Vanderzyden's gospel contradiction challenge"). So it was in response to someone else's challenge, first
(perhaps implicitly) in the first thread, and explicitly in the OP of the second thread which
produced ultimately the present thread and its topic 'contradiction'. Vanderzyden asked what the biggest contradiction was supposed to be and, one assumes, the Judas question was selected for the "challenge" not because it was so easy but because it was relatively difficult.

Quote:

Then: You pretend that there are NO other contradictions in the Bible because by YOUR rules, discussion of OTHER contradictions is "not allowed".

I remember no sweeping statements
of this sort by Vanderzyden. Could you repost where he said "there are NO other contradictions
in the Bible"?? Perhaps he actually believes this
but I don't remember him saying that is his
position.

Quote:

Care for a list of contradictions that cannot be explained this way? The scientific method is to
tackle the HARD contradictions -- not the easiest ones one can find.

Again it seems not to
have been his choice.

Cheers!

leonarde · 10-09-2002, 08:11 PM

Previously posted:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
Perhaps. But I wouldn't mind, nor would I be surprised, if I stood alone in these forums.

You do. Other trolls have been removed.

I see no evidence in this thread or in others in
which Vanderzyden participated that his behaviour
has been "trollish": he employs no invective and
sticks fairly tenaciously to the thread topic.
I think he is owed an apology....

Cheers!

Ion · 10-09-2002, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vanderzyden:
Whenever I encounter people who insist upon a large number of biblical discrepancies, I become suspect.
...
Matthew 27:3 -- When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders.
...
Thanks,

Vanderzyden

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Vanderzyden ]

Another Biblical discrepancy in the business of Judas'death, evident in the above quote, is that in Matthew 27:3 in contradiction with history, "...thirty silver coins..." didn't exist in Jesus' time, they had gone out of circulation 300 years before.
Minted coins, not silver coins were being used then.

See:
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html</a>

The Bible has too many holes like this to be considered divine, or even much historical:
it's a fabrication by superstitious writers like Matthew, with amateurish skills about reporting correctly the past.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

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10-09-2002, 04:49 PM	#82
Coragyps Veteran Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Snyder,Texas,USA Posts: 4,411	Hey,...uh,... Van? As soon as you've finished destroying all opposing arguments here, could you come back to E/C? You owe a bunch of folks a whole bunch of answers.

10-09-2002, 04:53 PM	#83
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	I strongly second that. I wouldn't expect you to carry on two large converstions at once, but when you finish here, we (or at least some of us) would not be opposed to your return. You would be mistaken to think that the debates you started there are settled.

10-09-2002, 06:03 PM	#85
Jayhawker Soule Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,777	I respectfully suggest that Vanderzyden fully warrants dismissal to the RRP Forums ...

10-09-2002, 06:57 PM	#87
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	Well Vanderzyden punked out after giving his lame contrived apologetic. He refused to answer any challenges and then declared himself the winner. Well far be it for me to gloat over such a hollow Victory. I’m switching sides because I’m bored and I think that Vanderzyden needs help. OK here goes. Judas had a twin brother who was also named Judas as a matter of fact all the men in his family were named Judas. Anyway there was a good Judas and a bad Judas. Well the good Judas was one of the disciples. But the Bad Judas was a highwayman along with Jesus Barabas(who incedently was the bad Jesus). Well the Bad Jesus kidnapped the good twin and locked him in the closet(how terribly evil)Then the bad Judas went to the last supper pretending to be his brother. Well the evil twin turned Jesus in to the bad guys for the reward money. Meanwhile the good Judas escapes from the closet. Runs to the temple to find out what his brother did. He finds out that the Bad Judas was paid to turn Jesus in so he throws some money at the evil priests and yells here’s your money you evil bad guys. He decides to kill himself to protect his Brother so he hangs himself in despair. Meanwhile the evil Judas parties all day and all night with his ill gotten gains buys some land and trips and falls in a drunken stupor burps and bursts open and expires. There we are! Now you all must admit that I can harmonize at least as well as Vanderzyden. I’ll be happy to answer any Question and defend this true story till my last breath. Take that you skeptics!

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