Freethought & Rationalism Archive

02-10-2003, 10:06 PM

Okay, so maybe I'm being a bit melodramatic but I do think that what was started here, democracy in the U.S.A., is turning out to be a failure. With the present administration almost totally in charge we have slowly watched our freedoms vanish. I don't think most people notice as it doesn't effect the majority very much but it is getting worse.

Domestic Security Enhancement Act

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The FBI and state police would be able to eavesdrop on what Web sites you visit, what you search for with Google and with whom you chat through e-mail and instant messaging--all without a court order for up to 48 hours.

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Under existing law, police must notify the target of an investigation except in rare cases such as when witnesses may be intimidated or a prospective defendant might flee. DSEA allows police to delay notification for three months simply by citing "national security."

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Police would be able to ask a judge to issue search warrants valid for anywhere in the United States if someone were suspected of computer hacking.

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Another worrisome part of the DSEA is a section that targets encryption. It would create a new federal felony of willfully using encryption during the commission of a felony, punishable by "no more than five years" in prison plus a hefty fine.

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Many of the DSEA's new powers will go--surprise!--to agents in FBI field offices. That possibility should worry anyone with an appreciation of history, which reveals that time and again, the FBI and other law enforcement organizations have ignored the law and spied on Americans illegally, without court authorization

Me and Me · 02-10-2003, 10:16 PM

I agree with what you said, but I disagree with Thomas Jefferson though.

elwoodblues · 02-10-2003, 10:45 PM

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but I disagree with Thomas Jefferson though.

In general? Or just on some one point?

Me and Me · 02-10-2003, 10:50 PM

I disagree with him, because his political ideas are inadequate for our times.

Like all political writings, they reflect the times in which they were written, so they shouldn't be looked upon as something that transcends that.

elwoodblues · 02-10-2003, 10:57 PM

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I disagree with him, because his political ideas are inadequate for our times.

Division of church and state? Civil liberties? Equality of man? Can you really disagree so much with the man who said this:

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The advertisement is the most truthful part of a newspaper.
Thomas Jefferson

I thought at least some of his ideas would resonate with anyone posting here...

moon · 02-10-2003, 11:00 PM

A failure? A failure for whom?

Me and Me · 02-10-2003, 11:12 PM

Elwood

I believe that religions are reactionary political organizations and should be banned. So the division of church and state doesn't have anything to do with what I believe on that subject.

As for the other stuff he wrote or believed in, they like most political writings are just words, I am more interested in democracy not words. As I said, I don't agree with him because his ideas don't reach as far as mine.

cjack · 02-10-2003, 11:19 PM

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Originally posted by Me and Me
I disagree with him, because his political ideas are inadequate for our times.

Like all political writings, they reflect the times in which they were written, so they shouldn't be looked upon as something that transcends that.

Hold on a second...

On the "If Marx Were Alive Today" thread, wasn't this the point that some of us were trying to make about Marx?

moon · 02-10-2003, 11:25 PM

Just a point to note:

Jefferson's idea of democracy was a state in which 1/6 of the population was enslaved, and less than a third of the free population even had the right to vote.

Me and Me · 02-10-2003, 11:25 PM

Marx's economic views were on how capitalism works, and the technical details of it. Read Capital and you would understand what I am talking about. Capitalism still operates the same way.

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02-10-2003, 10:16 PM	#2
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	I agree with what you said, but I disagree with Thomas Jefferson though.

02-10-2003, 10:50 PM	#4
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	I disagree with him, because his political ideas are inadequate for our times. Like all political writings, they reflect the times in which they were written, so they shouldn't be looked upon as something that transcends that.

02-10-2003, 11:00 PM	#6
moon Banned Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: former British colony Posts: 2,013	A failure? A failure for whom?

02-10-2003, 11:12 PM	#7
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	Elwood I believe that religions are reactionary political organizations and should be banned. So the division of church and state doesn't have anything to do with what I believe on that subject. As for the other stuff he wrote or believed in, they like most political writings are just words, I am more interested in democracy not words. As I said, I don't agree with him because his ideas don't reach as far as mine.

02-10-2003, 11:25 PM	#9
moon Banned Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: former British colony Posts: 2,013	Just a point to note: Jefferson's idea of democracy was a state in which 1/6 of the population was enslaved, and less than a third of the free population even had the right to vote.

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