-DM-

On the contrary, it could indicate how much YHVH hates worship of "gods" other than himself. In fact, when taken in context with other biblical precepts and injunctions regarding the worship of other gods (and idols), this seems to be the case.

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EX 20.3 (generally take to be the first of the so-called Ten Commandments): "You shall have no other gods before me."

EX 20.5: "I am a jealous God."

EX 34.14: "You shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

DT 4.24: "The Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

DT 6.15: "The Lord your God who is with you is a jealous God."

DT 13.6-11: [A man should kill members of his own family who worship other gods.]

DT 32.16: "They made Him jealous with strange gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger."

2KI 17.25, 2CH 25.14-15, 2CH 28.25 [The Lord is provoked to jealousy by the worshipping of other gods.]

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--Don--

-DM-

I love it how apologists can read the mind of their "God." Apparently some of "God's" alleged omniscience is conferred on his followers.

-DM-

EX 22.29-30: “You shall not delay the offering from your harvest and your vintage. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me. 30“You shall do the same with your oxen and with your sheep. It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

What you are asking us to do is take the words "firstborn of your sons" out of context with the surrounding words having to do with sheep, oxen, etc. (And we know what happened to those sheep and oxen who were offered to the Lord, don't we?)

--Don--

-DM-

"Hebrews -- This member of the Semitic family was no less prone than the rest to human sacrifices...." [From "The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, p 863]

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"Human sacrifice was exceptional among the ancient Hebrews, although we still read, 'The firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me' (Ex. 22:29, cb. 13:2). The Israelites very early SUBSTITUTED, like Abraham (Gen. 22:13), an animal sacrifice to 'redeem' the first born (Exod. 13:13-15, 34:20; Numb. 18-15). NEVERTHELESS, in a desperate crisis, the first-born was sacrificed as the supreme gift to the deity.... The immolation of Jephthah's daughter (Judg 11:30-40), which has been compared to Agamemnon's proposed sacrifice of his daughter Iphigenia (saved by Artemis), is the result of a vow made to the deity to obtain victory. Prisoners of war were occasionally sacrificed either for blood revenge (Judge 8:18-21) or as part of the ban (1Sam 15:33). Both these barbaric ancient rites were regarded as sacrifices to the deity ...."
[From "Harper's Bible Dictionary," pp 824-5]

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In addition to EX 22:29-30, there is also this in the Bible:

NU 25:4 "... take all the chiefs of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the Sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel."

EK 20:26 "I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am Lord."

What it boils down to is that there are biblical injunctions against human sacrifice, but also biblical references where it is condoned and/or sanctioned.

As do those of other cultures and/or religions (see the example below), Jews and Christians often practice a bit of self-deception in attempting to deny that this was ever sanctioned or condoned by their god.

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When I was in Yucatan last year, I visited many Cenotes, or wells of sacrifice. Despite evidence to the contrary, every Mayan guide insisted that child sacrifice wasn't practiced. There are necropolis' from Pheonician and Canaanite settlements with ritually sacrificed infants, stored in large urns. Some cemeteries reflect use for as long as twenty two generations. Entombments of live human victims was practiced in China until the Ming, I suppose every culture has 'skeletons in their closet' that members of the society deny.
- Duncan Scott Craig

RyanS2

That's my opinion on the Qur'an, the Avesta, and the Bible, but there are those who disagree of course.

Responses have already been given to the subject of this, but all of the things talked about are going to be given in burnt offering to the Lord. What else do you think the Lord was planning with the firstborn sons? In "The History of Childhood", Lloyd De Mause writes:

"Child sacrifice was practiced... in certain periods by the Israelites. Thousands of bones of sacrificed children have been dug up by archaeologists, often with inscriptions identifying them as first-born sons of nobility".

Now, let's look at that:

Exd 29 Thou shalt not delay [to offer] the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Exd 22:30 Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, [and] with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me.

The context you offer us is that this "giving it to the Lord", as the word "likewise" (ken/kane) tells us, is that the sheep, the oxen, and the first-born will be with their mothers seven days, and on the eighth day, you bring them to the temple per 1 Samuel?

History isn't very remorseful, and no matter how many bowderlizations occur, history is still history.

You're using a text from two different time periods, one with an obviously different surrounding passage. In one, the items all referenced are sacrificed, literally, to dear old YHVH.

Because they had "known a man". This is the same commandment that Muhammad gave his followers when they kicked out the Jews. The purpose of this is to "breed out" the opposition, much like the English used against the Scotish, where the nobile of a land could have sex with the newly wed before the Scotish could.

Not when dealing with foreign tribes that had been conquered. God had exceptions to all of his rules. (For instance, Moses marries a foreign woman, God has no complaints. Any of his men do it, and there was swift rebuttal from the Lord. Moses sister gets afflicted with sores when she speaks out against this.)

That's right, the men kept the virgin women for their own, to have a family with, (completely forbidden by the Lord), cf. Numbers 25:6-9 where Phinehas (Aaron's grandson) sees a man and a foreign woman together and throws a spear "through the man .. and the woman through her belly." This act pleases God so much that "the plague was stayed from the children of Israel." But not before 24,000 had died.

God doesn't even like real love relationships between foreigners and his beloved Israel, why would he want them to take foreign women they had beaten in combat?

davidH

"God doesn't even like real love relationships between foreigners and his beloved Israel, why would he want them to take foreign women they had beaten in combat?"


Well, did the Lord want Isreal to take the foreign women as brides? Where does God tell them to take the women?

I think if you read the passage that Moses was extremely angry with the soldiers for sparing the women. Also nowhere does it say that the Lord ordered them to take the women.

Exodus 34v19

"The first offspring of every womd belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or from flock.
Redeem the first born donkey with a lamb,but if you don't redeem it then break its neck.
Redeem all your first born sons.
"No one is to appear before me empty handed."

Are you starting to think about the verse I have just mentioned? You should have noticed something strange in it if you assume that the first born sons where to be sacrificed.

"Redeem the first born donkey with a lamb."
"Redeem all your firstborn sons"

ok, so when did you take the meaning of the word redeemed to mean sacrificed?

Exodus 22 v 29-30

In relation to this verse I will give you a few other verses to think about.

Genesis 17 v 12

"For the generations to come every male amoung you who is 8 days old must be circumcised..."

Exodus 22 v 30 - you will give them to me on the eight day.

Exodus 13 v 1-2

"The Lord said to Moses "Consecrate to me every first born male. The first offspring of every womb amoung the Isrealites belongs to me, whether man or animal."

This is the first verse to the chapter that you quote the other verse from that u said supported the human sacrifice.

Nowhere in the Bible did god ever say that human sacrifices were to be made to him.

This verse also says - with abominations they provoked him to anger.
What abomination was this? I think you will find that it included the sacrificing of children to idols.

GunnerJ

It would be interesting to see davidH and Ed in a conversation about the meaning of Numbers 31:18.

bubby

Not according to my holy book

At this point i will digress a little, so bear with me. I'm reading the Swedish "Bibeln 2000" translation, which is the third official Swedish translation of the bible (the previous ones are from 1917 and 1541). The language is this edition
of the bible is contemporary and tries to stay as close to the original as possible.
In other words it is easy to read and doesn't try to hide uncomfortable parts. It is left to the reader to decide what he reads into the stories.

I don't know how exactly how this translation has been received by "ordinary" Xtians, but some fundies have complained (in media and such) that the translation body has been wrong in treating the bible like any piece of litterature and
that some passages are not very flattering in this edition. The "Bibeln 2000" contains
the complete Septuaginta+NT, a dictionary and a piece on biblical history. Also, every book has a short introduction with date and author (if known) and some short explanation to it's content a.s.o.

</strong>

Let's compare my bible to yours. I have translated a few verses to English, exactly
as they appear in the "Bibeln 2000" and put the NIV version above.

2 Samuel 21:6

(NIV)
"let seven of his male descendants be given to us to be killed and exposed before the LORD at Gibeah of Saul--the Lord's chosen one." So the king said, "I will give them to you

(Bibeln 2000 in English)
"turn over seven of that man's descendants, so that we can chop (that's really the Bibeln 2000 says) them to pieces before the Lord in Givon, on the Lord's mountain"

2 Samuel 21:9

(NIV)
"He handed them over to the Gibeonites, who killed and exposed them on a hill before the LORD. All seven of them fell together; they were put to death during the first days of the harvest, just as the barley harvest was beginning."

(Bibeln 2000 in English)
"He turned all of these over to the Gibeonites, who cut them to pieces on the mountain before the Lord. All seven of them lost their lives simultaneously (or instantly); they were killed during the first days of harvest, in the beginning of the barley harvest."


</strong>
What about it?

2 Samuel 21:10

(NIV)
"Rizpah daughter of Aiah took sackcloth and spread it out for herself on a rock.
From the beginning of the harvest till the rain poured down from the heavens
on the bodies, she did not let the birds of the air touch them by day or the wild
animals by night."


There's a bunch of different bible versions on:
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net" target="_blank">http://bible.gospelcom.net</a>

Most versions in English talk about hanging, as does the Danish, Norwegian and German versions. The 1917 Swedish version talk about impalement.

The Bibeln 2000 can be found at:
<a href="http://www.bibeln.se" target="_blank">http://www.bibeln.se</a>

Kosh

Hey, maybe they just had a dedication for the
animals too. That would make davidH right, and
also explain the origin of the term "Holy Cow".

-DM-