Living Dead Chipmunk

AntiChris said:
Can't argue with that. It's only the absolute statements (rather than the strong statements with minor provisionals) that make me wonder if I missed a crucial event somewhere and these people know something I don't. Like, say, a black void of non-existance coming down one night and saying "My children, I do not exist. Spread the word."

~
Ronin said:
So you know with absolute certainty that aliens don't exist either?

You know damn well what I meant, and you're playing with semantics to avoid it. Is existance limited to what we can percieve? If someone refers to a NOUN that cannot be percieved, does it not exist? How many ways will I have to ask this question before you give me a straight answer?

When did I ever (a) say there was evidence for God, (b) say anything at all about the Abrahamic God, or (c) vouch for the accuracy of the Abrahamic tales of God?

What about them? We've climbed Mount Olympus and found no gods. I fail to see the relevance here.

Epicurus's paradox and the fact that we've climbed Mount Olympus and found no gods, respectively. And I could still be wrong.

Ronin

So you know with absolute certainty that aliens don't exist either?

There is no evidence for nifty, technology using, planet creating aliens as you asserted ~ therefore, I know with absolute certainty that they don't exist.

You see how easy that is for me.

As AntiChris has posited ~ with all probability even you can know something with absolute certainty based on observation, reason and logic.

You know damn well what I meant, and you're playing with semantics to avoid it.

You certainly are omniscient all of a sudden.

Is existance limited to what we can percieve?

Yes. Real existence is limited to what we can perceive ~ but try not to imply that is a bad thing, for their is abstract notions of fancy such as song, poetry, romantic fantasy, myth, etc. which are wonderful expressions of escapism that are abstract realms of non-rational thought and escapism.

They are not reality.

If someone refers to a NOUN that cannot be percieved, does it not exist?

Give me an example and we can mull it over.

How many ways will I have to ask this question before you give me a straight answer?

Just because you refuse to accept my answer and promote the nonsensical position that 'anything' can be real and exist 'somewhere' because humans are not omnipotent simply reflects your inability to rationally review facts and circumstances.

Nothing more ~ no offense.

You are still a good person.

When did I ever (a) say there was evidence for God, (b) say anything at all about the Abrahamic God, or (c) vouch for the accuracy of the Abrahamic tales of God?

Ok. Now that I have shown how to assess a claim of being "God" compared to your direct observations, can you agree that Yahweh does not exist as defined by the Christian holy writ?

What about them? We've climbed Mount Olympus and found no gods. I fail to see the relevance here.

Epicurus's paradox and the fact that we've climbed Mount Olympus and found no gods, respectively. And I could still be wrong.

Of course you can, using your mindset, because God(s)ess(es) are magically divine critters not subject to rational thought.

You promote then, that based on your physical examination of Mount Olympus, the gods Zeus and Hercules can still exist in reality.

This is sheer credulity and not rational.

My final question to you, then ~ is there anything at all about reality as it exists right now before you as you stare at the monitor, that you can 'know' absolutely?

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]</p>

Living Dead Chipmunk

I suppose I should rephrase. Based on the lack of evidence, are you denying the possibility of this *specific* alien being, or are you also denying the possibility of the entire general concept of extraterrestrials altogether?

Wasn't planning on it. I just wanted to acertain that I actually understood a point before advancing on it.

How do you define perception? Can tecnology increase our perceptual range?

I wish I could remember the name of the physicist who said "Theoretically, in a truly infinite universe, everything is possible."

Hmmm. Ok, I'll buy that. The specific definition of "God" as postulated by the Abrahamic faiths has serious obstacles when considering the validity of its existance. Especially considering modern apologetics doesn't do a particularly good job. Following that line to its logical conclusion, sure, Yaweh in that since doesn't exist. (You have no idea how many times I typed, deleted, and re-typed the word "probably" in front of "doesn't exist", it's just not in my nature to make absolute statements).

No, that's not what I said. I said I disbelieve in Zeus and Hercules because of a physical examination of Mount Olympus. That specific definition of God is falsifiable. The statement "I could be wrong" is merely an admission of possible human fallability. I simply assume we've climbed to the summit of Mount Olympus, I haven't read up on it. Besides, it was probably more directed at the former part of the sentance rather than the latter, although that's not made entirely clear.

Come to think of it, I wish I could convince the IRS of my nonexistance simply by moving quietly away when they finally come looking for me. Of course, the Greek god kinda WANTED people to know they existed, so that's really just a random musing rather than any sort of argument.

That's a good question. I'm reasonably sure that the only thing I can 'know' absolutely is that I exist. The paradox being, of course, that I can't even be sure of the veracity of that statement in an absolute sense. I might be typing on a computer in a college lab. Or I might be a butterfly dreaming I'm a man. Or I might be caught in The Matrix. Or IPU knows what else. Therefore, if you ask what I am doing, I will say "typing on a computer". If you ask me if I know that for sure, I'll say "Well, I'm reasonably sure, but I could always be wrong."

Heathen Dawn

Rationalism can make happy those who are already happy. But for those who are not, rationalism is just a step further into the slough of despond.

If rationalism makes you happy, then fine. But I'm not, and there's no chance rationalism can make me be. I'm in deep depression, and I need a helping god or goddess to raise me out of the pit.

GODDESS HELP ME!!!

Starboy

Heathen Dawn:

Pure rationalism may not make you happy but the products of rational science may do so. Consider the possiblity that your unhappiness is physical in origin. Perhaps medical science can help you.

Starboy

Oxymoron

A rational analysis of the way your mind models the world may well prove of worth here. I will bet my last rolo that your depression is caused by your conscious or subsconscious mind extraopolating some data in your memory and insisting that the undesirable result of that projection is how the future will be.

This would then leave you free to acknowledge that you don't know the future, the result you fear is not inevitable and that to insist that it is would be a lie. You never know, you might just feel a bit happier afterwards.

In short: don't knock rationalism.

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Oxymoron ]</p>

Ronin

LDC ~ We are beginning to talk around each other.

Our exchanges remind me of a story originally presented by Dr. Sagan (with some added embellishments) ~~

I have a friend who tells me at work one day that he keeps a dragon in his garage.

He can tell I'm dubious, so he offers to show it to me.

I'll accept anything with ample evidence, so I accede and agree to have the dragon shown to me.

Upon entering the garage my friend says, "There...that's all the proof you need."

Looking around, however, I see only a disorganized assortment of tools and a puddle of toxic antifreeze on the floor.

"I'm sorry," I respond, "but I don't see any dragon here."

"Oh, well I forgot. He's an INVISIBLE dragon."

"I see, or that is, I don't see."

Always prepared, I whip out an electronically enhanced pair of glasses,"Let's see if I can detect his heat in the infrared spectrum. Hmm... no, I can't see even normal body temperature, let alone the heat from an invisible firey breath."

"Oh, that's because this dragon doesn't give off heat. Reptiles are cold blooded, you know.... And his fire is room temperature."

At this response I remove the glasses and grab a can of oil from my friend's work-bench. I puncture a hole in the top and spread it evenly across the entire floor. After watching for a moment, I say, "I don't see any foot-prints."

"Didn't you know dragons can fly? He's hovering in the air right now."

Quickly I open the garage door, run outside, get into my car, and drive it into the garage. After stepping out of the car I say, "Is he still here?"

"Oh, yes."

"How can he fit in here with the car?"

"Well," my friend says, "this dragon is noncorporeal. He is made of a material that does not conflict with normal matter, and he can therefore exist simultaneously in the same space with another object."

"Do you have any proof at all to show me that indicates the existence of this dragon?"

"Well, no. You just have to take it on faith. *I* know the dragon exists because...well, because I just know and he talks to me, too, but only I can hear him!"

I look at my friend with utter disbelief, shake my head and get into my car.

"Prove that he doesn't exist!" he calls out to me as I back from the garage.

At this point I sigh and go have a beer.

This appears to be where we stand LDC ~ so, take care and watch those train crossings.

Triple Six

Nicely put Ronin.

I don't know where you got the patience to hang in there so long.

Living Dead Chipmunk

Ok, so even when I conceed some points and alter my definitions, you'll still brush me off completely?

Thanks for the enlightenment. Jerk.

I'd like to think at least one of my questions was worth responding to.

Pseudonymph

Please...stupid, pathetic, illogical?

Bitter much?


What is it exactly that you are out to prove? If you don't like theists coming here and asking to be treated with a little respect, then maybe you should examine your own values. Treat others as you would like to be treated...this is isn't rocket science.

We all fail at this from time to time, but I mean damn, some bitterness really showed through there.

Oh and Ronin...calling theists cult-members is very innapropriate in my opinion(which I'm sure means nothing to you but whatever...I learned a long time ago to avoid your posts. You make them easy to spot with the constant italics.)

So next time you wonder why brain dead theists come here and spew ignorance...think about what kind of people you may be attracting.