Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Koyaanisqatsi · 02-20-2002, 07:23 AM

Well, as ludicrous as this is, I'll play (slow work day).

This is what it would take: God revealing him/her/itself to every single person on the earth simultaneously while at the same time implanting the irrefutable knowledge of his existence and inherent understanding of our own existence in all of our genetic codes so that there is never and never will be a question about his/her/its existence (or ours) throughout all of human history, because to have any question at all about his/her/its existence (or ours), or to exclude anybody from revelation is proof that it's all a deliberate and obvious lie.

To use the most often misapplied theist analogy, imagine "God" is a Father and the entire universe is boiled down to ten children.

According to the bible (as opposed to biblical propaganda meisters; aka, apologists), that Father is never going to reveal himself to, let's say, seven out of his ten children, so that for their entire lifetimes, they will never know who their father is and will always question or wonder where they actually came from and what is "true" or not. Because the Father has created everything and everything is subject to his will alone, this is clearly deliberate on his part,yet he will reveal everything (even secret things) to the remaining three.

So let's pause a moment and think about this. Your Dad decides that you are to never really know he exists, but has decided (randomly, without prejudice) that he is not just going to reveal himself to your older brother and two younger sisters, let's say, but that he is going to tell them all about his plan and let them bask in the glory of his unlimited love, the purest love imaginable. You and your six other brothers and sisters get bupkiss for no ascertainable reason; likewise, you're older brother and two younger sisters get everything in spades for no ascertainable reason (let's ignore, for now Jesus' rules for discipleship).

So, right out of the gate, you've got the majority of Dad's children deliberately discarded, lost and confused, while three of them get everything (and I mean that literally) for no reason (because, if there is a reason, then Dad is playing favorites and it's a loaded game from the git go).

All ten of them will die by their Father's will (aka, Dad, ultimately, kills them).

Although he will kill them all and they will all suffer the pain and horrors of death, Pops has the ability to stop that suffering and, in essence send his children to a magical Disneyuniverse for all eternity, but Pops is only going to send, maybe, 2 of them to Disneyuniverse after they all suffer the pains and horrors of death.

What's more, he tells his kids that's what he's going to do. Tells 'em! Well, the three anyway, who tell the other seven. "The Father that none of you knows exists will kill us all, but, maybe 2 of us will get to go to Disneyuniverse after we suffer the pains and horrors of outrageous fortune."

"Well, I don't believe any of this to begin with, but just for the sake of argument, if this 'Father' actually exists, what did he say we have to do in order to qualify for Disneyuniverse?"

"Well, that's tricky. I heard from Dad's own lips that doing good deeds will get you in. Brother Bob heard that nothing you do or think will get you in and it's all just up to Dad's ineffable grace and Sister Carrie says that only through faith and believing that Brother Bob is Dad's only begotten son will we get to go to Disneyuniverse, maybe, after we all suffer the pains and horrors of death, but first Dad has to become Brother Bob in flesh and the seven of you non-believers in Brother BobDad have to put BobDad on trial then kill him so that BobDad dies for all of our sins."

"What?"

"That's what Sister Carrie heard. I heard a slightly different story with a few contradictory points here and there, but pretty much the same thing. Brother Bob, of course, isn't saying anything right now. He's transubstantiating while at the same time asking Dad why he's got to become Dad in order to die as Dad so that Dad can forgive everyone's sins."

"He's going to die for all of our sins?"

"That's what Sister Carrie and I heard and Brother Bob is claiming, only coyly and indirectly; like we're all a bunch of Greek philosophy students playing games of semantics. It's fun, but confusing and open to copyist errors. It's so hard to get good scribes these days, even with Dad's intervention and inspiration."

"Well, great, then that means we all go to Disneyuniverse once Bod becomes Dad and they both kill each other!"

"No it doesn't. You see, Dad has also let it be known that Brother Bob isn't who we says he is and that Dad isn't even who we say He is. In fact, there are literally hundreds of thousands of different stories all coming right from Dad's lips about Dad. And when I say, 'Right from Dad's lips,' I don't mean that literally, of course. None of us have actually ever seen Dad, because if we did our heads would explode."

"So, even you three have no idea what the hell is really going on?"

"Oh, well, yes, and no. Yes we know and no, we don't know. But we certainly believe."

"And this Dad fellow you keep talking about is ok with that?"

"Of course! It's his plan."

"So, not even being one of the three top 'chosen' ones is any guarantee that you'll transcend Dad's death sentence?"

"Correct. In fact, probably not for at least one of us."

"So what happens to the rest of us? Are we just left alone somewhere? Just not allowed to go to Disneyuniverse, so we all hang out in Orange County, or something?"

"No. You other 8 (possibly 9, who knows) are not going to be left alone. Your all loving Father will sentence you all to an eternal damnation of literally unimaginable punishment that never relents. Ever."

"Why?"

"Because you didn't obey him or even believe in him."

"How could we obey him or even believe in him if the bastard never revealed himself to us?"

"There! See! It's just that kind of potty talk that's going to get you banished from Disneyuniverse."

"You're a psycho."

"Ad hominem! There is nothing psychotic or delusional about what we're talking about since both Brother Bob and Sister Carrie agree with me about my beliefs (in subtle, contradictory ways that nonetheless run at least parallel to each other in certain ways, if we fudge it a little)."

"Tell 'Dad' to piss up a rope."

"Oooh! You'll be sorry you said that!"

"Why? What difference would it make?"

"It....well, according to...it just will!"

"Ok, loon boy. Run along now..."

With apologies to whoever wrote "Kissing Hank's Ass"

(edited for formatting - Koy)

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]

Draygomb · 02-20-2002, 07:38 AM

Bravo

MadKally · 02-20-2002, 07:50 AM

Disneyuniverse

Koy rules!

TollHouse · 02-20-2002, 09:40 AM

Classic!

Quote:

"Well, that's tricky. I heard from Dad's own lips that doing good deeds will get you in. Brother Bob heard that nothing you do or think will get you in and it's all just up to Dad's ineffable grace and Sister Carrie says that only through faith and believing that Brother Bob is Dad's only begotten son will we get to go to Disneyuniverse, maybe, after we all suffer the pains and horrors of death, but first Dad has to become Brother Bob in flesh and the seven of you non-believers in Brother BobDad have to put BobDad on trial then kill him so that BobDad dies for all of our sins."

Koy, you've done it again. So simple, so brilliant.
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Wizardry · 02-20-2002, 03:17 PM

This seems like a fairly easy question to answer.

What event could have occurred 2000 years ago to make me believe that there is a God?

Simply this:

If, 2000 years ago, God had appeared and presented the exact same message to the Roman Emporer in Europe, the Guptan Raja in India, the Chinese Emporer in East Asia and the Mayan King in America, then I would be convinced of the existence of a particular God with specific points of doctrine.

It is as simple as that. That would be irrefutable evidence of a deity and not at all difficult for a supposedly omnipotent being. A messianic rabbi preaching in the backwoods of the Roman Empire for whom reliable documentation fails to emerge for nearly half a century a horrible way to create and spread a religion and is far less than what I would expect from the All-Powerful Master of the Universe.

Peace out.

Megatron · 02-20-2002, 05:54 PM

PRAISE BE UNTO KOY!

damon_achey · 02-20-2002, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wizardry:
... A messianic rabbi preaching in the backwoods of the Roman Empire for whom reliable documentation fails to emerge for nearly half a century [is] a horrible way to create and spread a religion ...

Yes, but unfortunately for all of us, it has somehow seemed to work.

Can I hear three cheers for the ignorance of the masses! Hip, hip....

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: damon_achey ]

excreationist · 02-20-2002, 06:58 PM

Probably legends from every culture in the world that they were visited by God and he spoke to them a complex message e.g. that Jesus is the son of God and that the earth was created in six days, and the first people were Adam and Eve, etc. And they are all convinced that their ancestors were told this by God directly - not through missionaries. And they could all get little souvineurs like a cross with Jesus nailed to it made out of pure diamond and most cultures would still have a couple of them hidden comewhere.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 02-20-2002, 08:38 PM

Koy,

Let me ask you a question...

If some guy came up to you TODAY and:
said he was a messenger from God,
told the future and it came true,
went to the hospital and repeatedly cured people of AIDS, lukemia and cancer
brought a dead person back to life,
got shot and was proclaimed dead, but then came back to life him/her self,
ascended into the cosmos

...all in front of your own eyes.

you still would not believe in God?

Is that right?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 02-20-2002, 08:52 PM

Bill,

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden:
It's an interesting question, but given your question below:

How about this one: as Christian doctrine holds that those who were born, lived, and died before Christ either

A) were saved through their adherence to whatever covenant was in place at that time.
B) were saved when Christ descended to hell after his death and offered salvation to any therein who would accept.

and therefore the time of His coming in human history was essentially moot, why did would an omnipotent, omniscient being deliberately choose to send His most important message to a group of pre-modern people who lacked the ability and technology to record & preserve His message in order to ensure its most accurate transmission to all that followed, thus giving them the best possible chance to experience it?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Some good questions. A few points...

1-People are not 'saved' because 'Christ descended to hell after his death and offered salvation to any therein who would accept'. People are saved because God forgave every man of every sin he ever committed or will commit AND they acknowledge this fact. Granted, this was made possible by Christ, but it has nothing to do with Him 'going to hell'.

2-Notice the question 'Why did God show up when mankind only had technology X?' can always be raised NO MATTER when God shows up. That is the exact same question could be asked by some blokes 300 years ago (printing press) or the same blokes 3000 years into the future (neural holography).

WHEN God showed up doesn't really matter. THAT He showed up does.

As far a 'preserving His message' goes...I think the Bible does a pretty good job of that.

My $0.2

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

02-20-2002, 07:23 AM	#11
Koyaanisqatsi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Yes, I have dyslexia. Sue me. Posts: 6,508	Well, as ludicrous as this is, I'll play (slow work day). This is what it would take: God revealing him/her/itself to every single person on the earth simultaneously while at the same time implanting the irrefutable knowledge of his existence and inherent understanding of our own existence in all of our genetic codes so that there is never and never will be a question about his/her/its existence (or ours) throughout all of human history, because to have any question at all about his/her/its existence (or ours), or to exclude anybody from revelation is proof that it's all a deliberate and obvious lie. To use the most often misapplied theist analogy, imagine "God" is a Father and the entire universe is boiled down to ten children. According to the bible (as opposed to biblical propaganda meisters; aka, apologists), that Father is never going to reveal himself to, let's say, seven out of his ten children, so that for their entire lifetimes, they will never know who their father is and will always question or wonder where they actually came from and what is "true" or not. Because the Father has created everything and everything is subject to his will alone, this is clearly deliberate on his part,yet he will reveal everything (even secret things) to the remaining three. So let's pause a moment and think about this. Your Dad decides that you are to never really know he exists, but has decided (randomly, without prejudice) that he is not just going to reveal himself to your older brother and two younger sisters, let's say, but that he is going to tell them all about his plan and let them bask in the glory of his unlimited love, the purest love imaginable. You and your six other brothers and sisters get bupkiss for no ascertainable reason; likewise, you're older brother and two younger sisters get everything in spades for no ascertainable reason (let's ignore, for now Jesus' rules for discipleship). So, right out of the gate, you've got the majority of Dad's children deliberately discarded, lost and confused, while three of them get everything (and I mean that literally) for no reason (because, if there is a reason, then Dad is playing favorites and it's a loaded game from the git go). All ten of them will die by their Father's will (aka, Dad, ultimately, kills them). Although he will kill them all and they will all suffer the pain and horrors of death, Pops has the ability to stop that suffering and, in essence send his children to a magical Disneyuniverse for all eternity, but Pops is only going to send, maybe, 2 of them to Disneyuniverse after they all suffer the pains and horrors of death. What's more, he tells his kids that's what he's going to do. Tells 'em! Well, the three anyway, who tell the other seven. "The Father that none of you knows exists will kill us all, but, maybe 2 of us will get to go to Disneyuniverse after we suffer the pains and horrors of outrageous fortune." "Well, I don't believe any of this to begin with, but just for the sake of argument, if this 'Father' actually exists, what did he say we have to do in order to qualify for Disneyuniverse?" "Well, that's tricky. I heard from Dad's own lips that doing good deeds will get you in. Brother Bob heard that nothing you do or think will get you in and it's all just up to Dad's ineffable grace and Sister Carrie says that only through faith and believing that Brother Bob is Dad's only begotten son will we get to go to Disneyuniverse, maybe, after we all suffer the pains and horrors of death, but first Dad has to become Brother Bob in flesh and the seven of you non-believers in Brother BobDad have to put BobDad on trial then kill him so that BobDad dies for all of our sins." "What?" "That's what Sister Carrie heard. I heard a slightly different story with a few contradictory points here and there, but pretty much the same thing. Brother Bob, of course, isn't saying anything right now. He's transubstantiating while at the same time asking Dad why he's got to become Dad in order to die as Dad so that Dad can forgive everyone's sins." "He's going to die for all of our sins?" "That's what Sister Carrie and I heard and Brother Bob is claiming, only coyly and indirectly; like we're all a bunch of Greek philosophy students playing games of semantics. It's fun, but confusing and open to copyist errors. It's so hard to get good scribes these days, even with Dad's intervention and inspiration." "Well, great, then that means we all go to Disneyuniverse once Bod becomes Dad and they both kill each other!" "No it doesn't. You see, Dad has also let it be known that Brother Bob isn't who we says he is and that Dad isn't even who we say He is. In fact, there are literally hundreds of thousands of different stories all coming right from Dad's lips about Dad. And when I say, 'Right from Dad's lips,' I don't mean that literally, of course. None of us have actually ever seen Dad, because if we did our heads would explode." "So, even you three have no idea what the hell is really going on?" "Oh, well, yes, and no. Yes we know and no, we don't know. But we certainly believe." "And this Dad fellow you keep talking about is ok with that?" "Of course! It's his plan." "So, not even being one of the three top 'chosen' ones is any guarantee that you'll transcend Dad's death sentence?" "Correct. In fact, probably not for at least one of us." "So what happens to the rest of us? Are we just left alone somewhere? Just not allowed to go to Disneyuniverse, so we all hang out in Orange County, or something?" "No. You other 8 (possibly 9, who knows) are not going to be left alone. Your all loving Father will sentence you all to an eternal damnation of literally unimaginable punishment that never relents. Ever." "Why?" "Because you didn't obey him or even believe in him." "How could we obey him or even believe in him if the bastard never revealed himself to us?" "There! See! It's just that kind of potty talk that's going to get you banished from Disneyuniverse." "You're a psycho." "Ad hominem! There is nothing psychotic or delusional about what we're talking about since both Brother Bob and Sister Carrie agree with me about my beliefs (in subtle, contradictory ways that nonetheless run at least parallel to each other in certain ways, if we fudge it a little)." "Tell 'Dad' to piss up a rope." "Oooh! You'll be sorry you said that!" "Why? What difference would it make?" "It....well, according to...it just will!" "Ok, loon boy. Run along now..." With apologies to whoever wrote "Kissing Hank's Ass" (edited for formatting - Koy) [ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

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02-20-2002, 07:38 AM	#12
Draygomb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Harrisburg, Pa Posts: 3,251	Bravo

02-20-2002, 07:50 AM	#13
MadKally Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: LALA Land in California Posts: 433	Disneyuniverse Koy rules!

02-20-2002, 03:17 PM	#15
Wizardry Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 363	This seems like a fairly easy question to answer. What event could have occurred 2000 years ago to make me believe that there is a God? Simply this: If, 2000 years ago, God had appeared and presented the exact same message to the Roman Emporer in Europe, the Guptan Raja in India, the Chinese Emporer in East Asia and the Mayan King in America, then I would be convinced of the existence of a particular God with specific points of doctrine. It is as simple as that. That would be irrefutable evidence of a deity and not at all difficult for a supposedly omnipotent being. A messianic rabbi preaching in the backwoods of the Roman Empire for whom reliable documentation fails to emerge for nearly half a century a horrible way to create and spread a religion and is far less than what I would expect from the All-Powerful Master of the Universe. Peace out.

02-20-2002, 05:54 PM	#16
Megatron Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: New York Posts: 5,441	PRAISE BE UNTO KOY! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

02-20-2002, 06:58 PM	#18
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Probably legends from every culture in the world that they were visited by God and he spoke to them a complex message e.g. that Jesus is the son of God and that the earth was created in six days, and the first people were Adam and Eve, etc. And they are all convinced that their ancestors were told this by God directly - not through missionaries. And they could all get little souvineurs like a cross with Jesus nailed to it made out of pure diamond and most cultures would still have a couple of them hidden comewhere.

02-20-2002, 08:38 PM	#19
Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 889	Koy, Let me ask you a question... If some guy came up to you TODAY and: said he was a messenger from God, told the future and it came true, went to the hospital and repeatedly cured people of AIDS, lukemia and cancer brought a dead person back to life, got shot and was proclaimed dead, but then came back to life him/her self, ascended into the cosmos ...all in front of your own eyes. you still would not believe in God? Is that right? Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

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