Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 05-17-2002, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
It is hard to argue with you because you can't see that the most egregious sin of all is rejecting God. Doing the whole, well I'm better than that guy, and he is better than that woman, and she is better than Osama Bin Laden is meaningless. We are all sinners.

Ah yes, in the eyes of the Christian God, all sins (other than rejecting God) are equal. We've all heard this one many times before. Just a couple of questions:

(1) If all sins are equal, why does the Bible prescribe different penalties for different transgressions?

(2) If all sins are equal, why should we not hold ourselves to a godly standard and treat them as equal legally?

One could argue that death should be the penalty for any and all lawbreaking. After all, the law is the law, and obedience to the law is essential to our functioning as a society. Transgressions must be punished. But it's patently obvious that such a legal system would be supremely unfair and unjust, as would a legal system in which death is the penalty for any and all lawbreaking, but anybody who says to the judge "I'm sorry" gets off scott-free, whether he viciously murdered somebody or stole a paperclip from work. And yet Christians describe a deity that will reward the most vicious, murderous criminal if he truly repents before death, whereas the sweetest, nicest, most loving, most law-abiding grandmother will be eternally damned if she doesn't.

Yes, that is quite a stumbling block.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

lpetrich · 05-17-2002, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:

I would state that as God created a system with players that have a free will to choose to reject or accept Him, and that to the extent we rebel against Him either for part or all of our lives (you, me, Satan, man in general) the consequences of our actions were not unintended.

In effect, being indirectly responsible by allowing something to happen and intending for it to be possible.

Let us now consult RJS's favorite book:

Matthew 5:29-30, 18:8-9, Mark 9:43-47: If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.

Now extend that to free will. Doing so, we find that if it leads to sin, then it ought to be gotten rid of.

Also, I am a creator of computer programs, and I don't allow them to misbehave and then moan and groan about how terrible it is that they misbehave.

RJS · 05-17-2002, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Once again, these do not sound like your words. Are you plagiarizing again?

Asked and answered. look above. It was not intended to be misleading - and as I said, sorry. All of it actually came from Bill Bright who encourages the redistribution of it. It was obvious it was not mine (or at least I thougth).

For the record

Copyright (c) 2002, Bill Bright. All rights reserved. However, readers
may copy and distribute this message as desired, without restrictions in
number, as long as the content is not altered. Forwarding this e-mail
to friends is encouraged.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

brighid · 05-17-2002, 08:15 AM

You have failed to prove anything by stating that these ideas are massed produced! All that says is there are a lot of gullible, stupid people who will buy just about anything. It also demonstrates that critical thinking skills REALLY, REALLY need to be universally taught. It also says to me that this guy is a money grubbing, glory seeking son of a bitch. Jesus didn�t charge people to learn about the �Good News� and this man could easily provide his word, services and videos for free. I�m sure your all powerful God could find a way to make that possible. Arguments from popularity are also NOT credible foundations to build your thoughts or arguments on.

You are going to have to do ALOT better then that.

Brighid

ex-preacher · 05-17-2002, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


In the analogy, the parent would really be God, and the doctor would be the perpetrator (the evil or source of suffering). I could stop it, but I dont as a parent. The child does not understand. No need to respond.

The problem for you is that if God created everything - including bacteria, tornadoes, disease - then he is also the source of all suffering. This would be like dicovering that the doctor had actually infected your child with a lethal disease, then he offers a cure (at a cost) - all for his glory.

RJS · 05-17-2002, 08:20 AM

Quote:

You have failed to prove anything by stating that these ideas are massed produced! All that says is there are a lot of gullible, stupid people who will buy just about anything. It also demonstrates that critical thinking skills REALLY, REALLY need to be universally taught. It also says to me that this guy is a money grubbing, glory seeking son of a bitch. Jesus didn’t charge people to learn about the “Good News” and this man could easily provide his word, services and videos for free. I’m sure your all powerful God could find a way to make that possible. Arguments from popularity are also NOT credible foundations to build your thoughts or arguments on.

Joyous Morning! Hey, I dont know what you are talking about. Care to provide a reference to something I said?

brighid · 05-17-2002, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Yes borrowed - I thought that was clear given the nature of the text (sorry). It was Bill Bright.

Dr. Bill Bright is founder and chairman of Campus Crusade for Christ, an
organization which began as a campus ministry in 1951 and now has more
than 25,000 full-time staff and 553,000 trained volunteer staff in 196
countries in areas representing 99.6 percent of the world's population.
In the past 50 years, Campus Crusade for Christ has seen approximately 6
billion exposures to the gospel worldwide. The film, "JESUS," which
Bright conceived and funded through Campus Crusade for Christ, is the
most widely translated and viewed film of any type ever produced. Since
its use began in 1980, the film has been translated into more than 700
languages and viewed by more than 5 billion people in 234 countries.
Dr. Bright is also the author of more than fifty books.

This crap and everything related to it!

B

RJS · 05-17-2002, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Ah yes, in the eyes of the Christian God, all sins (other than rejecting God) are equal. We've all heard this one many times before. Just a couple of questions:

(1) If all sins are equal, why does the Bible prescribe different penalties for different transgressions?

(2) If all sins are equal, why should we not hold ourselves to a godly standard and treat them as equal legally?

One could argue that death should be the penalty for any and all lawbreaking. After all, the law is the law, and obedience to the law is essential to our functioning as a society. Transgressions must be punished. But it's patently obvious that such a legal system would be supremely unfair and unjust, as would a legal system in which death is the penalty for any and all lawbreaking, but anybody who says to the judge "I'm sorry" gets off scott-free, whether he viciously murdered somebody or stole a paperclip from work. And yet Christians describe a deity that will reward the most vicious, murderous criminal if he truly repents before death, whereas the sweetest, nicest, most loving, most law-abiding grandmother will be eternally damned if she doesn't.

The wages of sin is death - relative to the purity of God, all sins are equally deplorable. That is not to say that we cannot distinguish between stealing a candy bar and mass murder. All sins (other than one which we won't get into)are forgivable with repentance.

Hobbs · 05-17-2002, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ex-preacher:
As one who was a Christian for 36 years and has been an atheist for about 3 years, I beg to differ. I have found much greater joy in life as a nonbeliever. Certainly, I went through a period of grief and sadness as I let go of the fantasy of eternal life. But after that period, I found that life had more meaning for me. For one, I found a new commonality with all people. I had no longer felt compelled to divide everyone into two groups - the saved and the lost. You might say that my life went from black-and-white to brilliant living color.

Even if my life had not become more joyful, I would still rather live with the truth than a comfortable illusion. As George Bernard Shaw put it: "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

RJS, I really don't have anything to add to ex-preachers response to your response to me here, except to say "ditto." Change the number of years a bit, and his response is mine.

Well, maybe one thing to add. Since I know Christians who are happier now than they used to be before they were Christians, and I and ex-preacher and other former Christians are happier now than we were when we were Christians, I have to suspect that our happiness has at least a lot to do with being older, wiser, with more knowledge of ourselves and more experience in life and knowing better how to live it well, as opposed to our particular interpretations of what it all means.

All right, I guess I have another thing to add: as Shaw pointed out, happiness is no indicator of truth anyway. It's only an indicator of happiness. Arguing over who is happier won't get us any closer to what is true.

One thing that I think helped me get beyond Christianity is that my own concern for truth is greater than my concern for happiness. Sure, I want to be happy, and I hope there is no conflict between happiness and truth. But if there is, if I must choose between being happy and deluded or being miserable but knowing truth, I'll pick the miserable truth and live with it. Fortunately, though, at least so far I haven't found that happiness and truth are too incompatible.

ex-preacher · 05-17-2002, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


The wages of sin is death - relative to the purity of God, all sins are equally deplorable. That is not to say that we cannot distinguish between stealing a candy bar and mass murder. All sins (other than one which we won't get into)are forgivable with repentance.

Apparently we can distinguish, but God can't. Maybe it's all too complicated for him?

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05-17-2002, 08:15 AM	#254
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	You have failed to prove anything by stating that these ideas are massed produced! All that says is there are a lot of gullible, stupid people who will buy just about anything. It also demonstrates that critical thinking skills REALLY, REALLY need to be universally taught. It also says to me that this guy is a money grubbing, glory seeking son of a bitch. Jesus didn�t charge people to learn about the �Good News� and this man could easily provide his word, services and videos for free. I�m sure your all powerful God could find a way to make that possible. Arguments from popularity are also NOT credible foundations to build your thoughts or arguments on. You are going to have to do ALOT better then that. Brighid

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