Viti

Okay, since we are just going in circles I am going to sum up my position here. I know there are many valid, well reasoned arguments against the death penalty. I think some people could be convinced that the death penalty should be abolished if presented with such valid and well reasoned arguments.

I do not think, Jehanne, that you have presented your argument in a way that is convincing to others, especially not those in a position to make the changes you want. Therefore, your letter the Gov. Riley was a waste of your time. If it makes you feel better to put effort into useless avenues of affecting change, then have at it. If you want to be effective though, you may want to ensure you are able to respond pointedly and succinctly to cristicisms of your position, as they will always come up in a debate.

You seem to have posted here thinking you were "preaching to the choir" and everyone would simply agree with you (and maybe congratulate you on your letter), so now I wonder what your purpose was.

BDS

I'm pro death-penalty.

However, in order to be fair I don't think we should apply the death penalty in some cases, but not in others.

I think everybody should be executed.

Yahzi

Maybe because they don't have so many god-damn ignorant crackers.

I dunno, it's just a thought.

Jehanne

Most murderers are not sociopaths:

http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/l...us/82-6080.pdf

For your logic to be consistent and fair, every murderer would need to be executed. Since the founding of Jamestown, there have been 16,000 to 17,000 executions in North America, which is less than the annual homicide rate of 20,000 people.

Again, most murderers are not sociopaths!

This is simply not true with children!

Executions cost money, which could be better spent elsewhere:

http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=cost

As Carl Sagan once said, “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.�? Just because I cannot prove a statistical association is not proof that one does not exist. (Saying so would be tantamount to “proving�? the null hypothesis.) While autism is not directly correlated with murder, it, like many other mental disorders, is an “aggravating factor�? in criminality, which, of course, would include the category of murder.

Viti

Good thing I never stated such a thing. Most murders are motivated by money, power, or passion (failed relationships, jealousy).

I said most serial and spree killers are sociopaths (which are pretty much the only people I support the death penatly for. As I stated). Sociopaths are also accomplished manipulators and liars. One informed an FBI profiler (I will need to look up the reference later) that he could convince any psychatrist that he had any mental illness in the DSMIV, and further that he enjoyed screwing with the psychiatrists and making up all kinds of lies.

From a description of ASPD

"Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.Source UK Psychnet "

Anyway, could you quote the pertinent sections of the paper so I don't have the read the entire thing?

If you want to play dueling links, Medline (from the NIH) states

"Far more men than women are affected, and unsurprisingly, the condition is common in prison populations."Source Medline

I don't think it's possible to be consistent since the motivations for murder vary so widley. Each case must be looked at individually. I do not think all murderers should be executed and never said such a thing.

I never said "most". I said many. I was just showing you that all of your listed symptoms could apply to sociopathy or be feigned by a sociopath.
It is true with children. Children are just as capable of manipulation, conning and lying as adults.

Imprisonment costs money too...what's your point? And please, for the last time, include a quote or small section from your source, present your argument, and use links as citations rather than your actual argument.

Are you shitting me with this? Autism is not associated with criminality, it simply isn't. You have no reason to think it is, or if you do have failed to present your basis for such an assumption.

Find me some cases or studies where autism is correlated with violence against others and/or murder. Otherwise, you are just spouting baseless speculations and I expect a retraction.

Reign_Cryogen

You get my vote.

Jehanne

Agreed.

Bingo!!! Most serial killers and mass murderers are not executed! (Just do a search on the "Green River Killer". No more links, I promise!)

The brief basically states that juries, in deciding the death penalty, cannot predict a person's "future dangerousness". Most murderers do not repeat their offense (under 10%).

And, that’s the point. If you are a poor, indigent defendant in Florida who uses a state appointed attorney, your federal appeal must coincide with your state appeal; that is, both appeals must be filed at the same time. However, if you can afford your own attorney, you may file your state appeal first, pursuing your federal appeals after your state appeals are exhausted. (Guess “which group�? is more likely to be executed?)

True, but if you read the DSM, the sociopaths must be diagnosed before age 15. Granted, just as there are “functional schizophrenics�? who never get diagnosed, caught, etc., so there are “functional psychopaths�?, also, who never get diagnosed, caught, etc.

It costs more to execute, and the pain is the greatest for those people who go to death chamber who are innocent.

Okay, just one more link:

http://www.autism-society.org/site/P...me=criminallaw

(Last one, I promise!)

Jehanne

So, you are with the Pat Robertson’s the “Bible is inerrant and infallible, so women should only wear skirts�? crowd? (I am assuming not!) But, it’s easy to see how Stalin, an atheist, rationalized his actions! Execute 20,000 people a year??? (I suppose that you would support “drive-thru�? execution chambers, whereby the police could simply take a defendant to his/her execution immediately after arrest??)

Viti

He was spared the death penalty because he chose to deal. Had he not confessed and helped close some unsolved cases, he would have faced it.

Anyway, whether or not they are usually executed isn't the case. I only said most were sociopaths.
Well, they can't repeat their offense whether imprisoned or dead. I still don't get your point. My point was that some killers have been paroled and have killed again. "Life without parole" doesn't always mean life...mistakes happen. That's a big risk when we're talking human predators.

Where are you getting this information? Why can a private attorney file motions at different times than a state one?

And yes, I agree that the death penalty is applied unfairly (HINT: That's one of the well reasoned and valid arguments against the death penalty I was talking about)

It doesn't say that at all. It says the patient must be at least 18 to be diagnosed with ASPD and there must be evidence (not dioagnosis) of a conduct disorder before age 15.

Again, I never said differently. Many sociopaths do not murder, but many murderers are sociopaths. That was my point, what is yours?


Another valid and persuasive argument against the death penalty. Why did you wait so long to bring them up? Why didn't you include them in your letter?

Okay, thanks. It states autistics rarely break the law, and when they do there hasn't been found criminal intent or understanding of consequences (they are legally not responsible for their actions). You initially implied that autism causes/is correlated with violence.

According to your own evidence, an autistic committing murder is a rare anomoly, probably accidental, and not routinely convicted. No autistic has ever been executed either, so why did you bring it up in the first place?

Jehanne

The point is, by your logic at least, he "got away with murder".

I thought that we had settled this question, that is, that most murderers are not sociopaths! Most murders are committed out of hatred and revenge, greed, etc.

It is certainly not unconstitutional to execute someone who has autism. And yes, people with autism do get “in trouble with the law�?, and yes, they are certainly eligible for the death penalty. This poor fellow ended-up being executed:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510472004