frostymama

Sadly, not nearly as much as I would like.

jess

yes, if you are resourceful enough, you can find many herbal concoctions to cause abortion.

Many are millenia old.

abortion is not new.

Thanks for the passage. I missed it. Wow.

I remember from somewhere that 'bitter water' is a euphemism... it is not necessarily water with herbs, but a substance on it's own. I'll do some research and be back...

I also vote this get moved into a different forum.

Pitshade

An excellent suggestion.

diana

TerryTyron,

Probably because it is an Old Testament test that is obviously superstitious in nature, and Xns are embarrassed by it, and because those nonbelievers who wish to make something of it are forced to produce a bible that even begins to translate it in a way that makes a damn bit of sense. Note all the "and her thigh shall fall away/waste away/wither" translations. They don't make a damn bit of sense and they manage to avoid saying what was clearly meant.

Once you find a bible that translates it it a way that makes sense, many believers will reject your translation--because the obvious translation of the verse offends their sensibilities.

Good point. Oh, if only I had a book that lists all the euphemisms in the bible, instead of just the ones that are convenient to Xns.

d

B. H. Manners

Another question to be raised is that if God took the trouble to give us a way to find out if a woman has committed adultery, why didn't he give us ways to solve other problems? I am sure a concoction could have been created to prove one's innocence or guilt in regards to murder, theft, ect.

B. H. Manners

The OT laws stipulated that both a man and a woman caught in adultery should be put to death. So technically a man committing adultery was to be no more socially acceptable than a woman committing adultery. Where is the "bitter water" that a man can drink to prove to his wife he is not fooling around? Where is the consequencence? I think his dick falling off would be commisserate with a woman having her womb rot.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

TerryTryon

Good point! Ezekiel 23:20 in King James:

"For she doted on their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of donkeys, and whose issue is as the issue of horses."

In blunt English:

"For she doted on their paramours, because they had cocks like donkeys, and cum like horses."

But in Numbers 5:11-31, it is a slam dunk. There is no honest way to interpret the ritual except as grossly unjust, misosgynistic, and shamanistic. The King James translators were dishonest and willfully obscure, but Jacobean Culture was also full of institutionalized injustice, misosgyny, and sorcery, and it probably didn't sound as nasty to them as it does to us, so they didn't obscure the true meaning as thoroughly.

The OED has no entry for bitter water as an euphemism or synonym in English. Strong's merely states that it is Hebrew for "bitter" and "water." I tend to interpret that as meaning that the substance in question is water contaminated with some kind of herbal or mineral alkalai, since it is also referred to as "holy water." I am not an authority in this area, so take it with a grain of salt.

Now, I don't think people who have invested so much of their identity and personality in christianity are going to give the text second notice. Many of them read the entire bible cover to cover regularly and this passage obviously doesn't stir them at all. In fact, I remained christian for twenty years after first being slapped in the face with Numbers 5:11-31, and my reasons for reevaluating my faith had nothing to do with this matter.

Nevertheless, there is no way this passage can be reconciled with justice and morality. And a christian aware of it has got to have some kind of cognitive dissonance.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: TerryTryon ]</p>

TerryTryon

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: TerryTryon ]</p>

diana

BH:

Very good point. Which backs up my interpretation and the reasons for it. Thanky.

TerryTryon,
Good point! Ezekiel 23:20 in King James:

"For she doted on their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of donkeys, and whose issue is as the issue of horses."

In blunt English:

"For she doted on their paramours, because they had cocks like donkeys, and cum like horses."[/quote]

Just in case you're interested, the NRSV reads, "and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose emission was like that of stallions."

Um...kinda. If you're already convinced that women are the property of their husbands, it seems less unjust and misogynistic. If you're already convinced that God moves in mysterious ways, this seems like a simple and straightforward "test."

I think the most damning part is that God is obviously demanding that the woman undergo an induced abortion. English translations omit the part about the "womb discharge," and replace it with a nonsensical idiom about a "thigh falling away" to avoid dealing with this.

Or maybe, like jess suggested, it's just some herbal concoction that happens to be liquid, clear and bitter.

d

fcuk

isn't mandrake also a dangerous plant? i know that taken in small doses it is said to increase fertility (i believe that rachael and leah had a little quibble over mandrakes) but perhaps i am mistakenly believing that a simple overdose could cause spontaneous abortion. of course, why would you have an abortion when you were trying to get pregnant in the first place? people don't take mandrake unless they what to get pregnant.

okay, that's my rant for the evening. good day.