Freethought & Rationalism Archive

seebs · 05-29-2002, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hayden Rogers:

Fair enough, although you have to admit that religion (at least the Christian religion) hasn't made many major discoveries recently.

Sorry, I'm being facetious. But I think that your statement explains some of the possible origins of religion (from an atheist's point of view) - where science and philosophy fail to provide meaningful and accessible answers to life's mysteries, humans have a tendency to turn towards the supernatural. Anyway, that's a bit off-topic.

In my case, the handwaving "goddidit" is less of a reason to believe than a consequence. If I'm going to believe in God anyway, it seems reasonable to credit Him with the basic physical constants, since *I* sure didn't make 'em up.

gilly54 · 05-31-2002, 02:54 PM

Quote:

In my case, the handwaving "goddidit" is less of a reason to believe than a consequence. If I'm going to believe in God anyway, it seems reasonable to credit Him with the basic physical constants, since *I* sure didn't make 'em up.

Why do we have to credit ANYTHING to a god??? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

gilly54 · 06-04-2002, 10:57 PM

I'm going to continue this thread even though it is passe on this busy board!

I was reading <a href="http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rossuk/abiogen.htm" target="_blank">http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rossuk/abiogen.htm</a>

Quote:

Regarding abiogenesis Stanley L Miller says the following:

"It must be admitted from the beginning that we do not know how life began. It is generally believed that a variety of processes led to the formation of simple organic compounds on the primitive earth. These compounds combined together to give more and more complex structures until one was formed that could be called living.

No one should be satisfied with an explanation as general as this. We need a detailed theory that specifies the nature of the processes leading to the synthesis of organic compounds on the primitive earth, the nature of the compounds formed by these processes, and the quantities that could have accumulated abiogenically. Then we need to know the conditions under which the simplest organic compounds combined together to give monomers such as amino acids and nucleotides, and how these monomers condensed to polymers such as proteins and nucleic acids. At present, little of this detailed information is available.

Whatever happened to Stanley Miller's research? Did it end in 1953? I couldn't locate any site that said his experiment was expanded on.

The conspiracy paranoid in me wonders if he was "legally" silenced by lawyers representing the religion business.

lpetrich · 06-05-2002, 05:08 PM

Look under "Prebiotic Chemistry" with your favorite Internet search engine -- I've found oodles of links, including a few fundies here and there. Stanley Miller was far from the last to do experiments on this subject; this has been an active field of research.

gilly54 · 06-05-2002, 07:47 PM

Thanks again, Ipetrich.
My daughter is again going to try to get through the Bible as a suggested book for summer reading. I've got the Young's Concordance, your post, and quite a few other references. The links everyone supplied are most helpful. We are having fun reading the SAB.

Which reminds me: I looked for a FAQ page hoping for a list of the commonly used acronyms I see here. Like ROFL? It would be most helpful for newbies like me. Figuring out what a "troll" was was easy enough, but some of the other acronyms have me stumped.

Liquidrage · 06-05-2002, 08:17 PM

It's off topic but I'll list all the stupid fooking online acronyms that are commonly used that I can remember

ROFL = Rolling on the floor laughing.
ROTFL (t = the)
LMAO = laughing my ass off
for ROTFLMAO
ROTFLMGDFAO = Rolling on the floor laughing my god damned fucking ass off

STFU = shut the fuck up

WTF = What the fuck
For extra cool points add many Question marks
ex. WTF??????? (sarcasm on the cool points)

atm = at the moment

heh = a way for people to show they think something is funny

lol = laughing out loud

j/k = just kidding (sometimes just seen as jk)

btw = by the way

imo = in my opinion
imho = in my humble opinion

iirc = if i recall correctly

Now online gaming is a whole different world. It's not even English anymore.
Here, people will use acronyms occasionaly. In games, they are very common. It's not uncommon to see someone say this too you.
"AFK BIO BRB"

And if you see someone play an MMOG the language transcends into something beyond human.

Person one: "WTS/WTT FBSS 5K or JM + pp"
Person two: "WTF? 5kpp for a FBSS??? SCHW go for 5k. GL"
Person one: "STFU"

*/
Editing to add some that I forgot

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]

gilly54 · 06-05-2002, 09:04 PM

Off topic again:

Quote:

Person two: "WTF? 5kpp for a FBSS??? SCHW go for 5k. GL"

Please don't think less of me for the verbiage but I'm game: How about " What The Fuck??? 5 thousand per person for a Fuck By (Sally Strothers, Susan Sarandon, Steven Segal)??? Shit Christ Himself Will go for 5 thousand. Good Lord"

How did I do?

echidna · 06-06-2002, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daydreamer:
Supposedly - supposedly mind you - Super String Theory will allow us to pluck these constants from the vacuum before the Big Bang (assuming of course a non-cyclic universe).

I'm not holding my hopes up, and the science involved is leaps and bounds beyond my comprehension, but the Time of the Great Answer (to steal from the late Douglas Adams) may not be too far off.

Just as well you're not holding your hopes, because basically you�ve got no chance. Once you have a TOE which gives you your universal constants (assuming this is possible), you are still left with the far more important question, whence TOE ? You need to also prove that the TOE is able to bootstrap iteself into existence ex nihilo ... tricky (also as Douglas Adams might say).

Whether you call it God or whatever, basic scientific materialism alone has got some major obstacles in explaining our existence.

[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: echidna ]

gilly54 · 06-06-2002, 10:14 PM

Forgive my laziness, I haven't looked at any of the abiogenesis sites yet, but I would think that the introduction of radiation into the experiments must have been attempted. Cosmic radiation must have played a role in the primordial atmosphere, which was not as dense or protective as it is today.

I looked at the "shower" or decay scheme of a cosmic particle and it is quite complex. Does anyone know what kind of radiation was used and the energies? I did look up the radiation energy of cosmic rays and a chart said that at zero altitude, the enrgies were from 10-4 to 10-1 microSv, or microGray. Since a Sv is 1J/kg, then a cosmic ray would be 10-5 to 10-8 Sv, if I'm doing my exponents correctly. Assuming that the experimentors subjected their "primordial earth" to radiation, what type and energy of radiation did they use to duplicate the cosmic radiation of millenia ago? Just wondering!

jenn · 06-07-2002, 11:10 AM

There is a great book I read a few months back that I cannot think of the Author nor the title.I am planning on going back to the library and will find it and get back to you.My point from this book is this.The scientific world realizes there has to be a "singularity".This book goes into detail about black holes,energy,time,reality, perception, etc...And compares a "GOD" and evolution.Realizing of course that there could be both evolution and a "GOD". Either way, if you really think about it,there has to be a singularity.The singularity could be the active force people call "GOD"!!

06-05-2002, 08:17 PM	#36
Liquidrage Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,301	It's off topic but I'll list all the stupid fooking online acronyms that are commonly used that I can remember ROFL = Rolling on the floor laughing. ROTFL (t = the) LMAO = laughing my ass off for ROTFLMAO ROTFLMGDFAO = Rolling on the floor laughing my god damned fucking ass off STFU = shut the fuck up WTF = What the fuck For extra cool points add many Question marks ex. WTF??????? (sarcasm on the cool points) atm = at the moment heh = a way for people to show they think something is funny lol = laughing out loud j/k = just kidding (sometimes just seen as jk) btw = by the way imo = in my opinion imho = in my humble opinion iirc = if i recall correctly Now online gaming is a whole different world. It's not even English anymore. Here, people will use acronyms occasionaly. In games, they are very common. It's not uncommon to see someone say this too you. "AFK BIO BRB" And if you see someone play an MMOG the language transcends into something beyond human. Person one: "WTS/WTT FBSS 5K or JM + pp" Person two: "WTF? 5kpp for a FBSS??? SCHW go for 5k. GL" Person one: "STFU" */ Editing to add some that I forgot [ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ] [ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]</p>

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06-05-2002, 05:08 PM	#34
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Look under "Prebiotic Chemistry" with your favorite Internet search engine -- I've found oodles of links, including a few fundies here and there. Stanley Miller was far from the last to do experiments on this subject; this has been an active field of research.

06-05-2002, 07:47 PM	#35
gilly54 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Almaden, California Posts: 917	Thanks again, Ipetrich. My daughter is again going to try to get through the Bible as a suggested book for summer reading. I've got the Young's Concordance, your post, and quite a few other references. The links everyone supplied are most helpful. We are having fun reading the SAB. Which reminds me: I looked for a FAQ page hoping for a list of the commonly used acronyms I see here. Like ROFL? It would be most helpful for newbies like me. Figuring out what a "troll" was was easy enough, but some of the other acronyms have me stumped.

06-06-2002, 10:14 PM	#39
gilly54 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Almaden, California Posts: 917	Forgive my laziness, I haven't looked at any of the abiogenesis sites yet, but I would think that the introduction of radiation into the experiments must have been attempted. Cosmic radiation must have played a role in the primordial atmosphere, which was not as dense or protective as it is today. I looked at the "shower" or decay scheme of a cosmic particle and it is quite complex. Does anyone know what kind of radiation was used and the energies? I did look up the radiation energy of cosmic rays and a chart said that at zero altitude, the enrgies were from 10-4 to 10-1 microSv, or microGray. Since a Sv is 1J/kg, then a cosmic ray would be 10-5 to 10-8 Sv, if I'm doing my exponents correctly. Assuming that the experimentors subjected their "primordial earth" to radiation, what type and energy of radiation did they use to duplicate the cosmic radiation of millenia ago? Just wondering!

06-07-2002, 11:10 AM	#40
jenn Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 57	There is a great book I read a few months back that I cannot think of the Author nor the title.I am planning on going back to the library and will find it and get back to you.My point from this book is this.The scientific world realizes there has to be a "singularity".This book goes into detail about black holes,energy,time,reality, perception, etc...And compares a "GOD" and evolution.Realizing of course that there could be both evolution and a "GOD". Either way, if you really think about it,there has to be a singularity.The singularity could be the active force people call "GOD"!!

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