Ronin

Karen's great...but a little too deep for the standardly superstitious.

I have a sense that you should brush up on the fallacies of Pascal's Wager ~

Fallacy One:

It assumes that there is only one god which can be believed in, the Christian one. This is not true, since there are a plethora of gods that have been believed throughout the millennia. This would have to be applied to each and every one of those gods to be true, and this would clearly be impossible, due to the clashing natures of many of the said gods.

Fallacy Two:

It assumes that simply wagering on [the Christian] God will buy one entrance into Heaven. While this may be so, the Wager does not instill a belief, it instills an appearance of a belief. Since the god in question is presumed to be all-knowing, he would be able to tell a false from a true belief. Therefore, the belief from the Wager would not qualify should belief be the requirement for entrance into Heaven.

Fallacy Three:

It creates a moral dilemma. You, by using this, are sending the most dedicated humanitarians, who just happen to not be Christian, to Hell, while you set a place in Heaven for those mass-murders who happen to be Christian. Since [the Christian] God is supposed to be a loving god, how then could he entertain the embodiment of hatred, yet turn away the embodiment of love?

Fallacy Four:

It ignores too many alternate possibilities - some of which are addressed by existing religions, and some which are not. Some examples: A God could reward on criteria which seem meaningless to us - hair colour, taste in clothes, music etc. or A God might not be concerned with humans at all - the universe could be here for hydrogen for all we know. Or God may even reward those who don't believe.

Fallacy Five:

It assumes any person is overly fearful of death to be worried about it being a conclusion to their life.

Fallacy Six:

It assumes that a belief in God is all that is needed, when many Christians would disagree and would suggest that there are "guidelines" that you should live by (and that God requires you to live by if your belief is sincere). If these guidelines require a change on your part (for example: No sex before marriage, no smoking, denying you are a homosexual, not marrying a non-Christian, etc.), then it could be argued that you have lost something if the Christian God turns out to not exist.

Personally, FSB, I usually just have at the exploitative proselytizing with ~

"If your God is a truly a loving God, then he will forgive and grant me peace."

Just tell your Uncle that you love him...religion is just too ridiculous a topic to waste a life's precious time on.

Taffer

I wouldn't put any pressure on your uncle from your side. If he's going to have evangelists harrowing on him at his deathbed, the last thing he wants is you turning this into some sort of tug-of-war over his beliefs.

Just take opportunities to see him, and don't talk about religion unless you know he wants to. He can make his own decisions, and from your perspective, an eternal afterlife doesn't hinge on it.


As for your family: Personally, I'd point out that they're using the situation to try to convert people while they're paralyzed by emotions. If they're at all human, they'll see the sense in that and hopefully back off in respect for your uncle.

But that's just me. Maybe you aren't as confrontational, or you know your family wouldn't take it well.

muon

I would give the opposite advice, actually. I'd go out of my way to tell your uncle that you know he's getting pressure from the religious in the family, but that you're on his side, and he can talk to you about it. The poor guy is going to know he has support on this.

Jamie_L

fried beef sandwich,

I'm terribly sorry that you have to go through this. My condolensces.

I concur with the notion that you should try to be a good listener for your uncle if you have the opportunity to see him. If he is going to be under pressure in his dying months, it may be nice for him to have someone to talk to who will treat him like a normal person, not someone who is dying and in need of salvation.

I would avoid going back to Christianity just for family harmony. If atheism has made you more happy, then don't abandon it for the happiness of others. You have as much right to happiness as they do.

One thing I've tried when dealing with believers concerned about my fate is to say that if God exists and is really benevolent, he won't punish me for making an honest mistake about the way the world works. After all, he gave me my mental faculties, and made the world the way it is. Surely he'd be more likely to give me a pat on the back and say "Nice try," and then escort me into heaven where his angels can explain what was really going on.

Even the bible is ambiguous about how to get into heaven. Belief? Works? Grace? Clearly, different people have different ideas. It's somewhat arrogant for a person to believe that they have the right interpretation while others don't. But, of course, that's a hard sell to a true believer, and trying to sell that to your mom might make things harder on you, and her. But at the same time, if your mom can accept that your uncle isn't likely to be punished for his unbelief, then she doesn't have to worry about that on top of everything else.

If there is a God, and he really loves us, he's not going to punish us for being true to the nature he gave us. Maybe believers can't fathom why God's plan requires us to be non-believers, but surely they can accept that we're part of the plan, can't they? If they can accept that a loving God wants some people to die of cancer, can't they accept a loving God who forgives us for mis-interpretting his divine hiddennes?

God is omnipotent, and I'm a mere mortal. If God wanted me to be a believer, surely he'd be able to convince me. Given that I'm not a believer, I can only assume that, if there is a God, this is the way he wants me.

Good luck, and take care.

Jamie

ksagnostic

"For your uncle... well, it's not your job to "counter-evangelize." If he decides to go religious, it's his decision. However, one great thing you could do is be there for him and listen if he needs someone to bitch to about the evangelizing. Being the only other non-religious person in the family, you are in a unique position to be an understanding listener if he needs to vent, about religious stuff, about dying, about his fears... It sounds like a lot of the other relatives may be too busy preaching at him to listen.

Good luck, I wish I had more help to offer."

I, for one, MzNeko, think that is excellent and thoughtful advice.

((((((((((fbs))))))))))))

I wish you and your uncle the best possible outcome under the circumstances, which means I hope for less stress and less pain.

fried beef sandwich

Hi everyone, I'm back and in much better spirits than before. Midterm went well, but it was hard to study for it. The biggest relief came while reading your posts. Overall, I feel a lot less unfocused, discombobulated than when I was keeping all my thoughts to myself. Thanks for listening.

Latest news: his cancer is unusually aggressive. Didn't catch the name (mesothelioma?), so doctors aren't sure whether he'll last 4 months. Maybe 2. He took the news calmly, as did my grandma. I think they both knew something serious was up, but didn't expect such a dire prognosis. Biopsy, however, turned up a false negative, so he needs to go back tomorrow for some more tests. Don't know whether he will go through chemo or not.

My parents want to have dinner with him as a family this weekend - it was their idea, not mine. I'm not sure how he'd feel about it. Personally, I'd rather spend time with him alone to talk to him. I do have a good excuse - we're both foodies, so perhaps I can take him out to dinner myself sometime, preferably before he starts chemo if/when he does it. I'm still brainstorming ideas on how to do it without making it seem like the Last Supper.

I keep on thinking, what kind of mindset would I have if I knew I was going to die in 90 days? What would I do? I know I'd try to make that time as meaningful as possible, and hope to be around loved ones as much as possible. I'll try to be that person who doesn't leave his side (much), aside from summer school and my everyday responsibilities. Against my initial instincts, I'm not going to prepare myself to be a counter-evangelist, although I will fill that role if the situation demands it.

Besides, I don't think it would be right to convince my mom to see christianity the same way that I do now. She'll be drawing her comfort from god, the bible, prayer, and what not. I remember my deconversion experience - left without my usual existential outlets, I began to suffer from depression. I wouldn't want her to go through that right now, or have to actively worry about my salvation as well as my uncle's. Too much stress = bad.

Well, that's the latest. No real new developments aside from a little clearing up of my mind...

Jamie_L

One thing I learned from my wife's friend who had cancer (one who survived, BTW, so it may not be completely applicable):

She said she loved spending time with my wife during the experience because my wife didn't treat her like she was on the edge of death. She liked feeling normal.

I don't know if it's possible to feel normal with something so aggressive, but I think the same principle applies.

Best wishes.

Jamie

Majestyk

Everything else is minutia for the next four months. Be honest with yourself and kind to others. My sympathy and hope.

Be well.

Proxima Centauri

If your Mother andfamilly pressure you over God and religion limit the time your spend with them for the moment. See if you can visit your uncle on your own.
The rest of the time concentrate on getting good grades at university.

fried beef sandwich

well, I went to see my uncle. He's in pretty good spirits, begins chemo on tuesday. He's also sort of in denial or is misunderstanding the seriousness of his disease, but that's ok. The general feedback I got from friends, doctors, and others is that how he responds to the chemo in this case will largely depend on his attitude and mental state. So right now, things seem to be going ok. I'm thinking, as long as he's happy/peaceful/etc, then things will be all right.