Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen T-B · 03-06-2003, 05:14 AM

You did well there, Radorth, but not very well.

Some of the early settlers were religious fanatics, prepared to make an extremely hazardous ocean crossing and to settle a distant, hostile land (whose inhabitants they systematically cheated and bullied) so as to be able to follow their out-lawed beliefs and practise their out-lawed rites and rituals.
Other early settlers went as indentured workers, or were criminals, or adventurers with little sense of moral responsibility. Indeed, the Americas were attractive to them because there they had a good chance of living beyond the law.
Subsequently, slaves and economic migrants made up the vast bulk of those who followed the Pilgrim Fathers.

� It is populated by people who actually follow the teachings of Jesus by, for example, feeding and rebuilding former enemy states.� Teaching of Jesus to drive the native Americans from their homelands and confine them to reservations? The teaching of Jesus to drop Agent Orange on the forests of Vietnam and napalm Vietnam villages? The teaching of Jesus to nuke Nagasaki and Horishima?

�American soldiers actually read the Bible, and didn't rape their women.� That�s not what I read what happened in Vietnam. Remember that patrol which kidnapped a young Vietnamese woman, took her into the mountains, raped her for days on end and then shot her?

Shake · 03-06-2003, 05:32 AM

Radforth, you're an American? I'm surprised at your ignorance of what the American soldiers do. Yes, many soldiers have read the Bible, but many have not. You've been around these boards long enough to know that there are atheists "in foxholes." There are also Jews, Muslims, Taoists, agnostics, Wiccans, etc. Some of those have read the Bible, too, but weren't convinced of its supposedly divine nature.

Quote:

B. It is populated by people who actually follow the teachings of Jesus by, for example, feeding and rebuilding former enemy states.

As for this statement, I have to say perhaps as a nation, we do try to follow the good teachings. But individually, not even all US Xians follow the teachings of Jesus! Some of us non-believers could be seen (through our actions) as better Xians than some Xians!

I won't address the other points, since others have done so already, but I had to put my 2� in on these items.

themistocles · 03-06-2003, 03:42 PM

Well I imagine that our country is a lot more religious than most other English speaking nations (well, I guess I imagine Ireland pretty pious), but I don't know of a lot of fundies frothing at the mouth everywhere. I mean, you run into them now and then, but as religious as this country generally is, I think everyone kind of keeps it to themselves more often than not. Seems like an excessively personal issue. But yeah, I guess we're in the running for most religious English speaking nation.

Duck! · 03-06-2003, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
C. American soldiers actually read the Bible, and didn't rape their women

Call me a skeptic and a cynic Radorth, but I doubt that of all the millions of people who have emigrated to the USA, there was a single one who did so because "American soldiers actually read the Bible, and didn't rape their women"

Duck!

Hayden · 03-11-2003, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
I second that!
I'm from Christchurch myself.

You weren't catching a bus at about 10.15am on November 10 last year, were you?

HR

Fiach · 03-11-2003, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ganymede

As a British citizen living in New Zealand (a very secular place, despite no constitutional separation of church and state) I am always amazed at how very religious the US seems to be. From reading the posts in this board I get the impression that every second person in the US is a rabid fundy,

I think that statistics on the percentage of fundies in America vary from 33 to 49% depending on the poll. So you are close. They are either evey other or every third American. I am from Northern Scotland where unbelievers now outnumber Christians, and most of the Christians are tolerant liberals. We have a few fundies but they are a definite fringe group that have a reputation for irrationality. Most churches in Inverness have been converted to libraries, banks, Highland Council Offices, business offices, museums, and even apartments.

where as here church, god, religion, etc seems to play a very small part in people lives.

It is just the opposite of New Zealand and Scotland. We have no separation of Church and State and religion seems to be whithering away. In America the constitution has separation, it is a de facto Theocracy. Presidential candidates mention god or Jesus in every sentence, end every paragraph with "God bless America." God was added to the money and the Pledge of Allegience during the McCarthy Era. God is not in the constitution. The American Revolution has been highjacked by the Fundies.

Most of the people I know only go to church at Xmas and you rarely hear people discussing their religion at all. I guess that most folks would profess some vague belief, but it just doesn�t seem important to them. So my question is this � how is it that places like the UK and New Zealand are apparently �less Christian� than the US? What is the difference? Or is it just that I have a false view of the US, and hang with the wrong people here at home?

I have an hypothesis. In the past 300+ years, the British Empire (God Save the Queen), shipped most of the barmy religious extremists including covenenters, to the American colonies. After the 30 years war, many of the extremists were unwelcome in Catholic or Lutheran principalities and Kingdoms, so the worst had to flee... to America, and to Canada to a lesser extent. French Huguenots came to the American colonies. Most of the madman Oliver Cromwell's paranoid followers left England for America as well. So, America was started in part by religious fanatics to unruly and maladaptive for the more civilised nations of Europe. So Yanks, it is just my hypothesis, don't be offended.

PS: Don�t tell George W about this. I wouldn�t want him to put NZ on his shit list along with Iraq!

Ah ha, the axis of evil. George doesn't know what New Zealand is. He thinks it is a US state next to Pennsylvania. He thinks Scotland is just a land of transvestites (Kilts) and no danger. :-) (I hope my brothers don't read this.)

Fiach

Godbert · 03-11-2003, 10:52 PM

Grew up in east germany and met my first real christian at the age of 19 - but for a few months I thought he was only joking.
Until then I had mostly considered religion as a historical phenomenon.
As for the US I find the level of religiousness quite annoying even here in California. It's not that christians here are untolerant - not at all, the local christians are in fact really nice. It's just the complete idiocy and incessant repetition of complete nonsense free of any coherent thought that drives me crazy sometimes, maybe especially so because I like the people I have to hear it from.

mongrel · 03-12-2003, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Radorth:

Even with all those horrid "fundies" running around, with the gall to actually mention God, people bypassed Australia, France, Germany and England and came by the millions because...

Have you considered the fact that the USA was an independant nation before Australia was ever settled by Europeans? And France, Germany, and England were three of the many European countries losing people who were looking for a better life away from the miserable conditions of the time?

If you lived in, and wanted to leave one of those countries, say 150-200 years ago, where would you prefer to go?

The USA, just accross the Atlantic Ocean(a voyage of maybe 2 months- but that's just a guess on my part), is relatively rich, well developed, and has room for much more development? There was also less of a class system in the USA.

Or Australia, which at the time is a collection of isolated British penal colonies, with limited opportunities apart from lots of supposedly empty land, up to 9 months away via some of the most dangerous seas in the world? And then top this off with much less freedom than the USA. I would also guess that many(most?) average Europeans of the time probably hadn't even heard of Australia.

I know which one I would've chosen, if I had been in their shoes and knew about Australia, regardless of religion.

And I know which one I'd prefer now, given the choice, and current circumstances.

Sarpedon · 03-12-2003, 05:27 AM

Don't worry about my country. (I'm doing enough of that for all of us) Where Europe goes, America has always followed (eventually)
A problem we have in this country is the so called "baby boom generation"--an inordinately large group of people all born at the same time and sharing many opinions. As they represent a disproportionate part of the population, all american culture since the sixties has represented their stupid foibles. they also represent the last generation that may never have heard evolution taught in schools. Now they are old, and old people tend to be conservative and religious. Most of the "fundies" are that age or older. Shortly, they will all be dead, and, though there are too many young fundies, there will never be as many as in the boomer generation. I suspect that a similar phenomenon is taking place in other countries. There is still a significant part of the population that is religious, but they are all the old people, who will soon be gone. No problem, be patient.

Treacle Worshipper · 03-12-2003, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ganymede
Which atheist states did you have in mind - none of the 4 you mention qualify. Not sure about Germany but France is Catholic

France is a secular state, and there are a lot of people there who are extremely anti-clerical. If you teach in a state school you are not allowed to wear any symbol of religion (cross/crucifix/pentacle/whatever) because that is seen as a form of prosletysing, which is forbidden by law. There are a lot of catholics there, tho'.
In Germany, you have to pay an extra tax to the state if you attend church. I think this is an excellent idea

Quote Sarpedon:
Where Europe goes, America has always followed (eventually)
You think so? The saying round here is, "When America sneezes, Britain catches cold." Of course, Britain is pretty different from the rest of Europe.
TW

03-12-2003, 05:27 AM	#19
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Calm youselves, you people from over the seas... Don't worry about my country. (I'm doing enough of that for all of us) Where Europe goes, America has always followed (eventually) A problem we have in this country is the so called "baby boom generation"--an inordinately large group of people all born at the same time and sharing many opinions. As they represent a disproportionate part of the population, all american culture since the sixties has represented their stupid foibles. they also represent the last generation that may never have heard evolution taught in schools. Now they are old, and old people tend to be conservative and religious. Most of the "fundies" are that age or older. Shortly, they will all be dead, and, though there are too many young fundies, there will never be as many as in the boomer generation. I suspect that a similar phenomenon is taking place in other countries. There is still a significant part of the population that is religious, but they are all the old people, who will soon be gone. No problem, be patient.

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03-06-2003, 05:14 AM	#11
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	You did well there, Radorth, but not very well. Some of the early settlers were religious fanatics, prepared to make an extremely hazardous ocean crossing and to settle a distant, hostile land (whose inhabitants they systematically cheated and bullied) so as to be able to follow their out-lawed beliefs and practise their out-lawed rites and rituals. Other early settlers went as indentured workers, or were criminals, or adventurers with little sense of moral responsibility. Indeed, the Americas were attractive to them because there they had a good chance of living beyond the law. Subsequently, slaves and economic migrants made up the vast bulk of those who followed the Pilgrim Fathers. � It is populated by people who actually follow the teachings of Jesus by, for example, feeding and rebuilding former enemy states.� Teaching of Jesus to drive the native Americans from their homelands and confine them to reservations? The teaching of Jesus to drop Agent Orange on the forests of Vietnam and napalm Vietnam villages? The teaching of Jesus to nuke Nagasaki and Horishima? �American soldiers actually read the Bible, and didn't rape their women.� That�s not what I read what happened in Vietnam. Remember that patrol which kidnapped a young Vietnamese woman, took her into the mountains, raped her for days on end and then shot her?

03-06-2003, 03:42 PM	#13
themistocles Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: las vegas, nevada Posts: 670	Well I imagine that our country is a lot more religious than most other English speaking nations (well, I guess I imagine Ireland pretty pious), but I don't know of a lot of fundies frothing at the mouth everywhere. I mean, you run into them now and then, but as religious as this country generally is, I think everyone kind of keeps it to themselves more often than not. Seems like an excessively personal issue. But yeah, I guess we're in the running for most religious English speaking nation.

03-11-2003, 10:52 PM	#17
Godbert Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 779	Grew up in east germany and met my first real christian at the age of 19 - but for a few months I thought he was only joking. Until then I had mostly considered religion as a historical phenomenon. As for the US I find the level of religiousness quite annoying even here in California. It's not that christians here are untolerant - not at all, the local christians are in fact really nice. It's just the complete idiocy and incessant repetition of complete nonsense free of any coherent thought that drives me crazy sometimes, maybe especially so because I like the people I have to hear it from.

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