lpetrich

(a lot of pointless bickering trimmed)

Me? I've never done any such thing. And I know of no North American Indian writing systems -- the Aztecs and Mayas and Incas were too far south.

There you go again, wailing "Racism!" instead of giving reasoned arguments.

Which ones? And what, exactly, had Deloria claimed?

mibby529

I see you say nothing about the lack of a reason to cross the Siberian mountains. Your silence is telling.

Deloria claimed that cultural evolution is, like evolution itself, a response to our environment.

lpetrich

Search for unoccupied territory, most likely. This question can be generalized to humanity's spread over the globe; why is our species not confined to Africa?

And had he said anything there that others have not already said?

MrDarwin

I have some interest in this topic but I'm completely confused by the discussion and just what the sides of the argument are. Mibby, could you please summarize how and when you think native americans arrived in the americas?

wade-w

Iirc, horses evolved in North America, became extinct there, and were re-introduced by Europeans. I'm curious as to how they migrated out of North America into Eurasia without using the "nonexistent" Beringian land bridge. Are you suggesting that horses built and used boats?

ps418

Once more, with feeling. . .



The Pleistocene faunal interchange of mammoths and microvoltine rodents, for instance, between norh american and north Eurasia does 'prove' the existence of a passable land bridge. And perhaps you've forgotten already, but the genetic evidence already presented makes it quite clear that extant native americans are more closely related to northeast Siberian populations than any other population of earth. This does not prove they walked the whole way (e.g. they may have migrated along the coast using boats). But it pinpoints where the immigrants who gave rise to extant native americans came from.

Just when I think we've seen the wackyest of wacky logic, it gets even wackier!

Again, because you can not or will not argue against the facts, you continue to flagellate your own ridiculous assumptions. Let me reiterate for the 10th time now that there was no reason for immigrants to NA from Siberia to have gone into the mountains, since the continental shelf was exposed during sea-level lowstands.

ps418

Your posts and follow-up posts are like freudian free-association sessions. Either that, or you are incapable of keeping track of what it is you are replying to. And if you think that the bering strait is "of vital importance to 19th-century racialism," you certainly dont know much about that either.

So, let's return to the original question, which as usual you have evaded: Are you or are you not defending the hopelessly stupid (and clearly false) principle that the person who thinks of or discovers something first has some bearing on whether or not its true? If you are (and indeed you appear to do so), then I think any further argument would be a waste of time.

Also, since you ignored my other question, I'll have to ask that one again too: Many native americans believe in superstitious nonsense like divination and the efficacy of rain dances, which is just as silly as anything ever taught in a Christian church. Does that make all statements or theories originated by native americans false a priori? Or does your wacky logic only apply to non-natives?

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: ps418 ]</p>

mibby529

That's a straw man. You don't have to prove a theory to disprove another theory.

Another claim without proof.

And perhaps you've forgotten that race doesn't exist genetically. Furthermore, perhaps you've forgotten that, as I said earlier, killing off 98% of a population has an effect on genetics.

Your evidence for this? Once again, the existence of something doesn't prove man lived there.

Fact is, they may have misinterpreted data, or forged data entirely. Such was common in those days. They were all racists and/or creationists. I mean, you're claiming that some of these sites I've mentioned are forged, but are you willing to deal with the possibility that YOUR evidence is forged?

Someone here mentioned "political pressure," which I must assume comes from the Illuminati, Rand corporation, and/or trilateral commission, as anti-Indian forces (industry, white supremacists, Xian fundamentalists, New Age movement) have more political clout than Indians.

MrDarwin

Um... excuse me? I was neither constructing a straw man nor asking you to prove or disprove any theory. I was asking your opinion. Is the chip on your shoulder really that big?

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

ps418

Its not the chip on his shoulder so much as the block on his head. . .

I think its quite possible that Mibby really does not know what arguments and fallacies are. This is about the 5th or so time when someone has asked him if he knew of some alternate theory which explains the relevant facts, and each time he has given the same nonsensical reply. Keep in mind also, this is the same person who seriously doubts that there were herbivores in north america during the Pleistocene, whose hero Vine Deloria believes in rain dances, and who has been caught several times now fabricating his 'facts.' With a record like this, its no wonder Mibby is too afraid to come out with his own 'theory.' He knows his pearls would be trampled by us swine.