Direct Current

Hey, I'm going to show my cards early. Why do we all care to even discuss God's existence? We don't discuss the historical accuracy of so many things, why God? Is it because if we acknowledge the existence of God, the implications are as Creator he/she has ownership rights? And owners can do whatever they want with their creations and (gasp) God would most likely want us to DO something? Isn't the threat of losing our autonomy the real reason we debate this?

As a believer,and a human being, I'm not immune to the desire for self-determination and complete autonomy in my life. I am slowly coming to the realization that I don't always know what is best for me. I MAY NOT BE A SMART AS I THINK I AM.

diana

Hi, Dennis! I see you finally got in. Nice nick. Welcome!

I'm off to a party this evening, so I'll leave your comments to any regulars who may be about. If they're untrampled by morning, I'll see what I can do to make you feel welcome.

Oh...and "off-topic" is at the discretion of the mods, you saucy gent you.

d

cricket

It's nice to see you, and your cards.

I'm not sure why others do; as for me, I am fascinated that so many are certain of an idea that seems preposterous to me.

I think it would be interesting to discuss the other things and their accuracy. But whatever our investigations revealed about historical accuracy of various events -- all would pale in comparison to the ramifications of the existence of gods.

We're nowhere near there. For me the reason is that I just don't get it, and I feel I'm surrounded by mass hysteria, and I'm trying to understand it.

Would I lose my autonomy if there was a God? Hell if I know. Would you flatten if a galaxy-wide herd of invisible reindeer stampeded Christmas morning? Hell if I know.

If for some unfathomable reason there is a God, and if that would mean I 'lose my autonomy', it's difficult to imagine that my life would change by much. It's really not a concern.

AtlanticCitySlave

(1) Because someone may ask "do you believe in God?" instead of "do you believe in gravity?" it in no way shows they don't really believe in God. Rather, it probably comes about (usually) from a hunch that the person doesn't believe in God. The only people who have ever asked me if I believe in God are those who I have expressed some type of sign to when they brought up religion. Other than that, the majority of the time it's just professors. Sure, you have the teenager converter coming up to you saying "have you found Jesus?" or "do you believe in God?", but that in no way shows they don't believe in God, it shows that they want to know if YOU believe in God. It's rather polite (IMO), since they at least have the courtesy to ask and not assume you do.

(2) Regardless of (1), people ask questions like "do you believe in God?" or "do you believe in evolution?" or "do you believe in string theory?", etc., because they realize others, especially in their immediate environment, may not, and that the beliefs are controversial. While there are small fringe, out in the boonies groups who may not believe in gravity or that the earth is round, they are so small in number that most people have no worry (nor care to discuss) whether someone does or does not believe in gravity, since the odds of them coming across a person are so slim. Whether or not a God exists is controversial, at least for many people, and it's out in the open (even ignoring atheism, there are many religions and types of religions that people are aware of and which they come into contact with), just like evolution, string theory, etc. Sure, evolution and the existence of God may not be controversial to US, but it is to others. (No one has ever asked me at a Church if I believe in God.)

(3) Ignoring (1) and (2), it's incredibly arrogant and presumptuous to assume we know, by a simple question no less, that no one believes in God (even if everyone said "no, i don't believe in God" to the question "do you believe in God?", we still would be justified in thinking not everyone doesn't, since odds are at least one would lie).

(4) The majority of the article is a straw man. Christians would obviously reply, at the least, that God does not interfere in certain situations (even dangerous ones), since free will (or whatever else they choose) overrides such an interference. His argument really just boils down to, it seems to me, the argument from evil and an argument concerning God's refusal to do certain things, and this equals none of us really believe in God.

(5) Even though I am an atheist, this idea is silly. Just like Bahnsen was wrong that there are really no atheists, I likewise think it is wrong to believe they are really no theists.

(6) Even if this paper were to show that no one really believes in God, it would only show for a God that possesses the attributes he ascribes to it, i.e. all powerful and loving (to help the person with the gun at their head). It doesn't give us any reason to believe there is no deistic God or some other type of God.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]</p>

Direct Current

[QUOTE]
(5) Even though I am an atheist, this idea is silly. Just like Bahnsen was wrong that there are really no atheists, I likewise think it is wrong to believe they are really no theists.

Amen.

Direct Current

Hi, Cricket.

To answer one of your questions: Yes, even invisible reindeer have mass and would flatten your flatter than a crushed....cricket.

One the one hand you implied that the existence of gods was important and then on the other hand you implied that the existence of God wouldn't matter much to you anyway. Did I get that wrong?

Anxious to hear your thoughts.

cricket

If God exists, and I could know this for certain, this would be of tremendous interest & importance. Knowing this 'fact' would absolutely change my worldview. It would not, however, dramatically change my lifestyle. I wouldn't lie, burgle, or kill any more or any less than I do already.

emotional

I agree completely. The term "God" needs to be qualified. I am indeed agnostic with regard to the god of Deism, but of the theistic sovereign-God I am quite sure he does not exist, because the daily experience of how Nature works is disproof of him.

The non-existence of the theistic God (the one of the Bible and Qur'an) is weekly, daily, hourly disproved by looking at Nature and learning her processes (prominently evolution). He has already been disproved. The trouble with theists is that they deny this disproof. Were it for evidence alone, there would be no theists. But theists are held by the magnetism of scripture to believe in the non-existent God, despite all the evidence against.

"O Lord of Cars, I pray thee fix my car that won't start. O Lord of Computers, I pray thee fix my dysfunctional operating system"

[ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: devnet ]</p>

emur

When you mention ownership rights, it boils down to those who claim to speak for God owning us doesn't it? They are the ones who tell others what God wants us to think and how God wants us to act.

I may not always know what is best for me, but I have a better shot at it than other humans who claim to speak for God!

Take the human spiritual authority bit totally out of the equation and then we will talk about it, OK?

Mel

Synaesthesia

Yea, why is the ultimate meaning, origin and purpose of the universe something we care about?

Beats the hiddly heck outta me.