Devilnaut

I suppose I made a mistake in posting a thoughtful reply, since it seems to have been wasted.

Geo, put some thought into these posts man. It is damn obvious why this website focuses on Christianity, and it isn't because it is the "one true religion". I won't bother giving my thoughts in this area because I think that this will simply taint whatever ideas I present with your "angry atheist" brush. That and I suspect you're intelligent enough to come up with them on your own..

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

Amos

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeoTheo:

Your crisis of faith is self induced when you first called yourself a Christian. The mistake you made was that you never raised the ax and must do that now. This time it will be to remove you vainglory and that will move you bact at square one but leave you with a healthy conscience. It's not easy but worth it in the end.
Good luck

GeoTheo

Philosoft,
I need to take a break. You do seem to be a reasonable person and I have noticed that in your thoughtful posts. I really do believe what I posted, however, is for the most part true. It all comes down to the conscience. People can create a system of epistimology that excludes God, but the conscience continues to reflect God.
I am not sure how the more respectful and thoughtful atheists such as your self deal with this. I don't forsee that questioning people's honesty will ever be recieved well. But I really don't see how people can deny the existence of God for long. I know there are all sorts of things people rationalize away in their lives. They may only be aware of these things on a sub-conscious level. I suspect that may be the case with you. I don't mean it as an insult. But, non-cognitivism, seems to me to be a wall created to not to have to deal with a certian big question in life. In Nature, things grow armor for a reason.
Take Care
I have not much left to say.

GeoTheo

Amos,
Thanks for the kind words. Good luck to you also.

Synaesthesia

Kenny,

My point is that any intentional account of God's activities is necessarily ad hoc. God's character is such that any concievable absurd, contradictory and seemingly evil action on God's part can accounted for in terms of his 'character' just as easily as, say, the creation of the world or the existence of man.

God did not evolve from an ape-like species. He does not have a brain. He does not have a single body and the intentional limitations evolving from it. We know nothing about how he gathers information.
We realize that we really have no idea what a human would act like if given infinte power. No idea in the least, it's totally outside the boundaries of our thought. How can we possible imagine how such a bizarre thing as GOD who is infinite in so many respects. Well, we can but observer how he DOES act. Since we are comitted to the docrines of the bible, we are forced, without further ado, to accept that this God who made this world, has the character as I interpret such and such a sacred scripture.
There's no way to see how we are doing in our explanation. Emotional satisfaction is culturally and individually dependant. God is far beyond science or observation.
Any intentional account of any different character assigned to God is perfectly consistent with any given state of affairs. Although a certain account may strike us as plausible, it really cannot be given any definite preference over another. We simply do not have the theoretical machinery that permits a judgement between theories about God.
Far be it from me to dictate what attributes your God does and does not have. Humans absolutely and in principle unable to rightly declare any if his actions - no matter what that action may be - to be unjust.
It is impossible to determine whether or not God is just, since any state of affairs is consistent with it. We must postulate as a brute, unsupported fact that God is just.
I for one have found no explanation of the universe that constitutes anything but a dismissal of the necessity of expaining the universe. This includes yours: God cannot offer any account of why he, hence why the universe, exists. Granted, I don't disagree that we should reformulate the question of what it means to explain the universerse, but you should at least acknowledge that you no more have an explanation than do I. You have simply a very great deal more to explain.
The question is how we know it works. How do we know the quacks from the doctors? Since I have no cure for my fatal illness, I'd rather save my money for the living then spend it on cures as useless as a dead miser's bullion.

Sapient

How ironic, because I just met you and now that I see that....

1. You can't take a joke
2. Have a problem with jokes that are biblically accurate
3. Don't have the ability to refute "said" jokes
4. willing to ignore someone based on them posting a link to a website....

I have come to feel sorry for my brother "Geotheo" and have dismissed him as one of those kooky people known as the "willingly ignorant."

It ussually takes me at least 25-50 posts to make this determination, but I have a reasonable expectation that I'm accurate in my determination.

Philosoft

Geo, check your PMs, mate.

penumbra

posted by GeoTheo
Objection, your honor, assumes facts not in evidence.

"Conscience" - the sense of what is right or wrong - neither reflects, nor stems from, "God" or any belief in "God". It stems from the knowledge or perception of the ultimate consequences of one's actions (real or imagined, short or long term)and is governed by the instinct for survival, either of the individual or the species. "God" is merely a convenient excuse for enforcing a set of standards without having to explain their true origin or purpose.

Kenny

Thank you for your kind words. If I have been used in any way by God to strengthen or encourage your faith, I am both humbled and deeply honored. I will pray that God continues to strengthen you through whatever means He might choose.

The Gospel is alive and powerful and it is to the truth of the Gospel that the Holy Spirit primarily witnesses. All other theological issues, all other theological questions, all other theological disputes, all other theological difficulties, are nothing except in-so-far as they pertain to the Gospel. So, cling to the Gospel!!! Whatever other storms there may be, you will ride them out if you hold on fast to the only thing that really counts in the end. Cling to it not merely as a set of beliefs, but as what it really is, the means of being reconciled to God and being in communion with Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit– a living reality, not a dull and lifeless philosophy which can only describe but not heal and restore.

I am speaking more from personal experience here than from any theoretical construct. I know what it is like to face a crises of faith, to have so much that I had previously thought come into serious doubt and to see much of what I had formally believed come crashing down around me, but it is through such a crises that God showed me what really mattered, what was truly important, and what was merely peripheral. God allowed my faith to be shaken so that He could refocus it and deepen it in the end. Gradually He rebuilt it anew, but with a new center that should have been there all along. I pray that He does the same in your case

Agreed, I felt the same way when I went through my own crisis of faith. But, God is real and He is alive, as He has shown me time and time again. He is not an abstract construct, but a personal being. He can be known and makes Himself known to us as we cling to Him, even in times when it seems that He is not there – through such experiences He teaches us to trust Him more and makes our communion with Him even sweeter when His presence is felt.

Here is what my advice to you would be. I will not encourage you to run away from your questions, but here, on an atheistic internet message board, is probably not the best place to investigate them. I am not saying this because I would discourage you from seeking out other points of view or because I don’t think that participation in forums such as this lacks value (else why would I be here), but because an impersonal, argumentative, and often hostile medium such as a debate centered internet message board, is not the best place to come to when dealing with an emotional and spiritual crises. Instead, I would encourage you to read books. Get out there and talk to people live and in person. Be part of a Christian community that takes your questions seriously -- one that will wrestle with them along with you, and is not content to give you simple pat answers. Read some serious works of Christian philosophy and Theology (not the popular level Josh McDowell type stuff), along with whatever detracting points of view you might choose to read. If there is anything I can do to help, email me at kendog_b@yahoo.com

Above all cling to the Gospel and to Christ as I have said, and trust God to guide you through this storm.

In Christ,
Kenny

K

GeoTheo:

This is absolutely ridiculous. I'm amazed when theists can't see that even without any kind of God, our species would have to evolve a conscience in order to survive. One human would be at the mercy of the elements and many other predatory animals. One human would have a very difficult time obtaining food. One human would find it impossible to raise offspring which take an incredibly long time to reach maturity. Without our conscience to allow us to form cohesive social structures, our species would have died out long ago. It looks like our gods reflects our consciences instead of the other way around.