Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corwin · 03-08-2002, 01:17 PM

I'm glad you're all so entertained....

You're thick, but you're entertained.

Let me draw you a map:
Here's the basic point... and one you're missing. All of that matter? Is in fact accelerating toward the center of the earth. The fact that it's prevented from actually REACHING the center means nothing. The accleration is still there, the force (from gravity) is still being applied, the energy is still being added. It's an external force that is being applied to everything on earth, including the matter that makes up the planet itself.

Given ENOUGH force and matter, the entire structure will collapse in on itself. Ever heard of a black hole? Guess what? Same idea. As a star, it had enough matter to actually have enough gravitational force to reach the 'critical mass' (not in the atomic reaction sense, but the term fits...) for its structure to collapse. Planets? Don't have that much mass, and therefore don't have that much force. They DO however, have some... again, all that energy has to go SOMEWHERE. It can't just sit there, or it would steadily increase over time until all energy in the universe was concentrated in a few points. You're all failing to factor in the effects of a universal force (gravity) on a local environment. (the earth.)

Corwin · 03-08-2002, 01:19 PM

Syn.... second law is irrelevant.

As we constantly tell creationists... the first part of the second law is 'In a closed system,' which the earth is not.

Corwin · 03-08-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Similarly, in the pressurized center of the earth, sitting there with so much potential energy, well.... that potential energy HAS to go somewhere, right? So naturally, it's going to heat itself up (somehow). Oddly, though, the center of the earth is able to heat itself up without LOSING any pressure, thus without losing any POTENTIAL ENERGY. And yet, magically, we get THERMAL ENERGY. Let me say this agian. EVEN THOUGH THE POTENTIAL ENERGY REMAINS THE SAME, IN CORWIN'S MIND, THERMAL ENERGY JUST STARTS "BEING" THERE. hmmmm....

Welcome to the joys of an open system.

Energy enters this system in the form of gravity. (Gravity itself may not be energy, but it's what gives the rock its potential energy.)
It leaves it in the form of heat. (The earth doesn't keep all its heat... it does radiate some off.)

bluefugue · 03-08-2002, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Is in fact accelerating toward the center of the earth. The fact that it's prevented from actually REACHING the center means nothing. The accleration is still there,

I'm sorry, but even I can see the flaw in this. If the mass isn't actually moving, then it's not accelerating.

Corwin · 03-08-2002, 01:25 PM

Acceleration of gravity is still 9.8 m/s^2.

Doesn't matter if you're resisting it or being blocked or not, that acceleration is still there.

Deimos · 03-08-2002, 01:26 PM

Draw a map! I'm surprised you can use a keyboard.

This is like classic 'Eternal' material

.

Folks, we are all about to witness the dawn of a new physics. Corwin, start writing your Nobel Prize acceptance speech.

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Deimos ]

bluefugue · 03-08-2002, 01:27 PM

Acceleration is a change in velocity. If the object is stationary, it is not accelerating.

Corwin · 03-08-2002, 01:45 PM

Demios... go back and study thermodynamics a bit more. What you guys are saying is roughly equivalent to saying that a car can only go about 300 miles before it has to be replaced.

Well SURE.... if you don't put a refillable gas tank in it. No shit.

Corwin · 03-08-2002, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IesusDomini:
Acceleration is a change in velocity. If the object is stationary, it is not accelerating.

If an object is having energy put into it for acceleration, and being prevented from accelerating, (such as a car chained to a wall) the energy is still there, it's still being expended, it still has an effect. That simple enough for you?

bluefugue · 03-08-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corwin:


If an object is having energy put into it for acceleration, and being prevented from accelerating, (such as a car chained to a wall) the energy is still there, it's still being expended, it still has an effect. That simple enough for you?

That's not what I responded to. What you originally said was:

Quote:

All of that matter? Is in fact accelerating toward the center of the earth.

This is the equivalent of saying that a rock on a table is accelerating downward. It's not. It's just sitting there. There may be something going on, forces-of-physics-wise, but that rock is not accelerating, because acceleration is defined as a change in velocity.

I completely understand the "common-sense" meaning of what you are trying to say. You are saying that gravity is still "pulling" on the object, whether it is moving or not. I don't know whether this "common sense" interpretation is valid or meaningful; I'll have to defer to the more scientifically knowledgeable here. However, the object is not accelerating. It's important to use terms with precision in science.

03-08-2002, 01:26 PM	#96
Deimos Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 97	Draw a map! I'm surprised you can use a keyboard. This is like classic 'Eternal' material . Folks, we are all about to witness the dawn of a new physics. Corwin, start writing your Nobel Prize acceptance speech. [ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Deimos ]</p>

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03-08-2002, 01:17 PM	#91
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	I'm glad you're all so entertained.... You're thick, but you're entertained. Let me draw you a map: Here's the basic point... and one you're missing. All of that matter? Is in fact accelerating toward the center of the earth. The fact that it's prevented from actually REACHING the center means nothing. The accleration is still there, the force (from gravity) is still being applied, the energy is still being added. It's an external force that is being applied to everything on earth, including the matter that makes up the planet itself. Given ENOUGH force and matter, the entire structure will collapse in on itself. Ever heard of a black hole? Guess what? Same idea. As a star, it had enough matter to actually have enough gravitational force to reach the 'critical mass' (not in the atomic reaction sense, but the term fits...) for its structure to collapse. Planets? Don't have that much mass, and therefore don't have that much force. They DO however, have some... again, all that energy has to go SOMEWHERE. It can't just sit there, or it would steadily increase over time until all energy in the universe was concentrated in a few points. You're all failing to factor in the effects of a universal force (gravity) on a local environment. (the earth.)

03-08-2002, 01:19 PM	#92
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Syn.... second law is irrelevant. As we constantly tell creationists... the first part of the second law is 'In a closed system,' which the earth is not.

03-08-2002, 01:25 PM	#95
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Acceleration of gravity is still 9.8 m/s^2. Doesn't matter if you're resisting it or being blocked or not, that acceleration is still there.

03-08-2002, 01:27 PM	#97
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	Acceleration is a change in velocity. If the object is stationary, it is not accelerating.

03-08-2002, 01:45 PM	#98
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Demios... go back and study thermodynamics a bit more. What you guys are saying is roughly equivalent to saying that a car can only go about 300 miles before it has to be replaced. Well SURE.... if you don't put a refillable gas tank in it. No shit.

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