christ-on-a-stick

Hi luvluv,

I can only speak for myself, not MegaDave, but from my perspective at least in referring to "religion" I would be referring to any exclusivist religion, in which case I believe the analogy holds.

luvluv

1 You say you agree with Dave so far as exclusivist religions go. Okay, well I belong to an exclusivist religion. Would you therefore say that I am of less than average intelligence, never contribute an original thought to my beliefs, don't know anything about my religions history, am a sheep, and that the world would be a better place without me?

2 Would the analogy also hold when referring to a brand of atheism which states that all religious people 1) never contribute an original thought to their beliefs, 2) are below average in intelligence, 3) don't know anything about their religions history , 4) are sheep, and 5) are people without whom the world would be a better place?

(Number 5 especially calls out for a Final Solution, does it not?)

Atheism such as that represented by MegaDave is as exclusivist as is any brand of religion. Any person holding a worldview that regards ANYONE outside of it as less intelligent and less informed than themselves is an exclusivist bigot.

christ-on-a-stick

luvluv,

To 1) I would say that while from what I know of you you don't exhibit these characteristics, you are in the minority.

To 2) I would remind you that atheism is merely a lack of belief in theism. A-Theism. Nothing more, nothing less. Obviously many atheists have their own worldviews/philosophies in addition to their lack of belief in theism, but these are wide and varied, and not dogmatic.

As to 5) it doesn't particularly "call out" for anything in my view. As far as a "Final Solution" goes (which as I'm sure you realize is a loaded term to begin with), the only "Final Solution" I would like to see (and most atheists I know) is that reason and critical thinking will eventually make superstitious religion extinct.
So far as I can tell, MegaDave wasn't "presenting" atheism, and I would remind you that atheism is merely a lack of belief, not a belief itself. I personally don't know any atheist (and I know a bunch!) that thinks EVERY theist is less intelligent and less informed than themselves.

luvluv

1) In other words then, MegaDave's original statement is obviously untrue, even when applied to exclusivist religions, so why do you say you agree with it even in this context?

2) Frankly, you are in no position to know that I am in the minority. You don't have anything approaching enough contact not just with Christians, but with all those who hold to exclusivist religious beliefs IN THE WORLD to know what the majority of them are like.


3) That you can classify an intelligent, informed religious person who is not a sheep and without whom the world would NOT be a better place as being in the minority constitutes stating that the majority of religious people ARE unintelligent, uninformed sheep without whom the world would be a better place. And as such your gracious granting of special status to me is hardly less racist than the Southerner who grants that there are a few good ni****s in the world.

Which again is in essence to state that a religius person cannot have powers of reason or critical thinking, which is another bigoted statement.

And yet when MegaDave implied that all religious people were stupid sheep without whom the world would be a better place, none of you uttered a WORD of protest.

Pyrrho

As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. If you look again at the title of MegaDave's post, you will see that he is talking about eliminating racism and religion, not racists and religionists. He is talking not about the elimination of people, but the elimination of unfounded beliefs.

christ-on-a-stick

Pyrrho,

Thanks for pointing that out (beat me to it!)

As I see it, one of the major differences between how theists (esp. of the exclusivist variety) see nonbelievers and how nonbelievers see theists, is that while certainly nonbelievers think that the theists' *beliefs* are wrong, it is not something inherent in them as a human being. However, (most) theists by virtue of their belief system hold that the nonbeliever is inherently sinful, etc. This is where I think the analogy is apt. Racists, by virtue of their belief system, hold that those (of whatever race they are prejudiced against) are inherently inferior.

luvluv, you say that which frankly, confuses me.... I am not making assertions as to what individual people are like, as Pyrhho pointed out we are talking about the *belief systems* of religion and racism.

Of MegaDave's 7 points, only #7 (in my view) is talking about the PRACTITIONERS of religion, and if it were me making the same statement I would preface it with "many" because as you said we are not able to know every person's motivation and reasons for belief.

auto-da-fe

First of all, I am not calling for "The Final Solution", only advocating reasonable and critical thinking, instead of trusting in the belifs that were handed down from generation to generation.

Surely you can see how racism and religon have many common traits. And I will agree that not every theist is a fundy, but like the person who is a closet racist and never truly express his true feelings, I personally beleive that most theist are not fundies simply for a lack of a leader to push them this way.

Both racism and religon HAVE caused thousands upon thousands of deaths (something I do not see luvluv or anyone else disputing) and anything that has caused that much damage and death around the world throughout history should most certainly be questioned.

luvluv you make it seem like I am advocating mass murder, when I am doing no such thing. I simply stated that if the beliefs of racism and the beliefs of religon were to disappear from the earth, it would, IMO be a much better place to live. As usual, a religous person is taking my statements and puttin their own unique spin on them to make it seem like I said something I did not. And while I did not in any way mention homosexuality, I believe that Judaism is a religon, and would therefore qualify under my OP.

auto-da-fe

And christ-on-a-stick is correct, and I should have specified that "many" of the people that practice these 2 abominations do not know its history. Obviously someone out there knows the history of both, but next time I will try to be more specific.

auto-da-fe

something along the lines of "Hate the theism, not the theist"

of for that matter "Hate the racism, not the racist"

braces_for_impact

I stand by my statement. In vitually every religion I know of there is an "us" and "them". Most religions subscribe to some sort of reward for certain behaviors, and punishments for others. The yardstick to measure the moral behavior of others is that particular religion's own world view and the acceptance and adherance to that worldview by the individual. If said individual does not accept those beliefs and practice them they are "immoral" and thus "them". They are seen as inferior, at least on an ethical level and often times as a whole.


I don't buy this. I have had extensive contact with Christians, and I was a Christian. I do not have to know each and every religious person around the world to make a judgement. I rely on my personal experiences with people of faith, and I look at the world around me. Take a look at the various Theocracies that abound around the world. They are self evident in that if critical thinking replaced religious dogma the world would be a better place.



I don't think this is a bigoted statement, I think it's true in the respect that even if religious people are skeptical and use critical thinking skills, they have obviously not applied this to their religion. One cannot be a "kinda" skeptic. A skeptic who uses critical thinking properly is even skeptical that he's a skeptic. To apply critical thinking to some claims and not others does not make one a true critical thinker.

I think the crux of the matter is, why should religion be a hands off issue? While I have to repect the individual, I do not have to respect your beliefs. I do not have to respect religious beliefs any more than I have to respect a racist's beliefs, and I don't mind saying so. Now, living in America, I will grant you the right to have them, but religious beliefs like so many others I could mention should be challenged, especially when harmful.