emotional

Dangin,

You obviously don't understand me or what I have to say. I've been to a number of professionals in order to treat this fear and they haven't helped. What makes you think that you, with a flash of a magic wand, can succeed?

I believe in life after death no matter what people say. This belief is my dearest treasure, and I have no intention to lose it just so as to "save face with evidence and reason". I do what I feel is right.

andy_d

Any good scientist will tell you that the only measure of the value of a scientific theory is it's utility.

If a theory accurately matches observations, and makes predictions which are subsequently found to be correct, it is a useful theory.

Using my previous example, Newtonian physics is useful if you are trying to build a skyscraper, but useless for smashing atoms. Likewise, Quantum physics tells you nothing useful about how to stack your girders

To be strictly correct, scientific theories are never "true" or "false". They are simply "useful" or "not useful". Often as we gain more knowledge, old theories diminish in usefulness and are left behind, while new, more useful ones are adopted. This process will never end as long as we are amassing more knowledge.

That's the whole problem with the evolution/creation argument. The Creationists assume that because they claim to have a source of Truth, that the scientists do as well. Evolution is not Truth, it's simply a very useful way of thinking about the relationship between organisms and their environment.

But that's enough of my waffle, i'm off to do something useful

dangin

I'm not trying to cure you. Obviously that is out of my hands. I'm simply trying to point out their may be a better methodology to protect your well being. I mean I mentioned the region of your brain that can be manipulated to create out of body experiences, and you freaked out. It seems that you'll be increasingly prone to inadvertent attacks on your "dearest treasure" the rest of your life as science continues to unlock the processes of the brain and awareness.

The ostrich with his head in the sand may feel safe, but his ass is still hanging out there. . .

Calzaer

I doubt there's anyone who took the trouble to distill it down to those specifics, but in general I think that most Wiccans would be able to accept it with only slight philosophical modification (particularly on the parts when I emphasize that I'm not certain). I am, after all, Wiccan-in-training (on my way to my first degree priesthood), so my beliefs are obviously going to be heavily influenced from that area. But, like I said, I don't think you'll find it in extensive outline format anywhere. I've had to distill the above from various different (and in some cases, dissimilar) sources, such as books and discussions with other theists, as well as do some real soul-searching on what I actually believe (versus what someone else has told me I *should* believe). What you have, above, is the end result of years of data accumulation and SREs, presented in (what I hope is) an easy-to-read, specific, bottom-line-type format without the 120 page essay that fills in the little spaces between the lines.

So in several respects, it is specific to me. However, overall, it should fit with most traditions of Wicca and perhaps several traditions of non-Wiccan Paganism.

It's certainly a possibility, but I've tried to be an atheist before. Either through insanity or ignorance, however, I've found that I simply can't NOT believe. Primarily because of quite a few SREs of varying types and intensities. I liken my position to that of a theist who sees all the atheists in the world get caught up in the Rapture while being left behind himself. "I know now that I have to NOT believe in God to get to Heaven, but I just seen the most blatant miracle he's ever performed! AAAARRG!"

I like to examine every possibility, whether or not I like it. What I argue against primarily, wherever it occurs, is the notion of absolute certainty. I take the atheist side against Christians simply because it's easier than arguing the validity of my brand of theism versus their own (which ends up being a "yuh-huh!" "nuh-uh!" argument, seeing as there's just as much hard proof for either case). I do, however, argue in theist defense against Strong Atheists and the people who believe theism itself is a mental disorder (such as in this thread). I argued with Emotional because I got my dander up over something trivial (that being the *requirement* of absolute certainty for continued mental health) and let it get out of control. I learned quite a while ago that I don't actually line up with either side represented on this board (that being Christians and atheists), so I hold the line with the atheists (being that they're more likely to admit to uncertainty) and occasionally go off on my own, like I'm doing here, because the Christians won't ever back me up no matter WHAT i'm saying. I generally only come back to theism in discussions when someone tries to synonymize "theism" and "Christianity", or when someone asks me to talk about it.

I am a believer, however I also feel it's important to contemplate living one's life as if there was nothing after it. Emotional disagrees with me. It's really, for me, a "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" kind of situation. I'm pretty sure there's an afterlife, but I can't count on it (since only the Dali Lama has ever shown any real sort of authority on the subject (since he remembers past Dali Lama lives, and all), and everyone around here thinks he's a big liar).

There are several places where the implications of science, might disagree with my conclusions (based on the perceptions of the person doing the interpreting), but to the best of my knowledge nothing in the above outline has been conclusively rendered scientifically or logically impossible. I'll freely admit that this is a "god of the gaps" sort of argument, a large-scale appeal to ignorance. It's also a bit of shifting the burden of proof... but keep in mind I'm dealing with subjective experiences that can NEVER be proven to anyone outside myself. I don't see it as really *shifting* the burden of proof so much as declaring that I have my proof (subjectively) and therefore require something outside myself in order to break down that proof. Which is why I don't actually expect anyone to believe me. I don't use subjective experiences as evidence in any discussion precisely because they're subjective and asking someone to DISprove them, rather than attempting to make them verifiable in the first place, is just as counter-productive as saying "Prove God DOESN'T exist!". Unfortunately, due to their nature, they are and probably will remain forever unverifiable (except in the case of #9b, above). So, while I will freely admit defeat in this arena, since I can't prove to you that my beliefs are accurate, I cannot admit defeat in the internal arena, because my experiences DO count as proof to myself and therefore must be deconstructed in order to eliminate the beliefs they've helped inspire.

I was raised Christian-Because-Everyone-Else-Is, which is sort of like enforced ceremonial deism. My father wasn't so much concerned for my eternal soul as he was for looking like a good parent to the rest of the (fundamentalist) family. Sometime in mid-high-school I discarded the idea of Christianity altogether (but don't tell my parents that) due to contradictory tenets, impossible expectations, and a lack of any personal experience in spite of the assurance I'd have some if I was REALLY saved ( ). I became Wiccan, because I agreed with the philosophy, but later embarked on a path of self-definition (although I didn't see it as such at the time). It involved reading more books than every library in SC put together has on the issue of non-standard religious beliefs. I have a library that encompasses everything from Taoism to Urban Shamanism. Eventually, in the end, after a twisty round-about journey that took me about 4 years longer than it probably should have, I came back to Wicca and began formal training under a third-degree High Priestess. Of all the systems I'd studied, I kept coming back to Wicca. All the SREs I've ever had have been in the context of Wicca (and I didn't have any at all, that I can remember, while I was running around willy-nilly reading every alternative religion book that crossed my path). I gained quite a breadth (if not depth) of knowledge during that time, but didn't experience anything as fitting as I did originally. I would be a third degree right now if I'd stuck to it back in the day... but I don't regret taking that detour to learn about other paths.

Thanks for asking!

emotional

Well I haven't found it. Neither did any of the professional psychologists I visited.



I'm sorry, I should have stayed and defended myself. Perhaps I wasn't in the mood for a confrontation.



That's no skin off my nose. Even if science manages to map every cognitive function to a specific brain area, I believe in the spiritualist teaching that there is a duplicate body, brain and all, that takes over after the death of the material body.

dangin

If you can convince yourself of delusions of this magnitude, I don't know why you can't just face death. Seems the simpler trick to me.

Calzaer

Consider a Rube Goldburg device that accomplishes making toast through the use of hamsters, anvils, bicycle chains, and spring-loaded paperclip guns.

If it works.... what's the problem?

emotional

I just can't face the idea of having my self switched off. And even when I think about what was before I was born, my head starts reeling with fear. Much more so about the future. And don't compare to sleep or anaesthesia - everyone knows you wake up from sleep or anaesthesia. It's the thought of not waking up at all that sends me reeling with fear. The thought that I'm walking on a conveyor belt towards a pit of nothingness just drives me crazy. I can't and therefore don't accept it. Since professional counsellors have failed, I take faith as medication for my fear.

Charlie

Very interesting and thanks for sharing..
I am truly sorry that you have such a fear of death! As an atheist/rationalist... with no belief in god or an afterlife, I too find it disappointing that this life is all we have. Sometimes I think the downside to being such an intelligent species is the fact that we are capable of knowing that we will have to face death and cease to exist. Also, having to lose our loved ones.. Knowing that this is all we are.. It is sad.

On the other hand, the up side is that we are also capable of living life to the fullest, like no other animal on this planet. There was a time when I thought about whether I would have been happier being a lower life form, some animal (perhaps a dog, cat, bird?) just so I would not have to know that I was going to die someday. However, I feel that I am much happier and much better off being the human that I am. I do my best to not let one minute go by without grabbing my share of happiness. I know this is the only life I have and I am living it to the fullest that I possibly can! Now I even enjoy thinking things like how many sunrises or sunsets do I have left? So hey, I'll take the time to make sure I see one very soon. Not only to just see it but to thoroughly enjoy it. I find myself enjoying life so much that I completely forget about death!

Btw, why do you hang out here listening to people who are telling you there is no afterlife?
Wish you the best!
Charlie

emotional

I think about death even when I'm enjoying life.

Why I hang out on these forums? It's company. It's a group of very nice people to be with