Magus55

There is no contradictory evidence, only contradictory assumptions and theories which don't prove didly other than people have different views.

Christian

Magus55,

Well put.

Respectfully,

Christian

Angrillori

Alrighty, so a question comes up, does the Bible try to keep its adherents ignorant, or does it encourage thought and reason.

I'm sure many proverbs can be whipped out speaking of the virtue of wisdom, and knowledge. But what is this knowledge, this wisdom the bible encourages?
Look, it's not any sort of scientific knowledge, reasoning, or other intellectual pursuit. The wisdom god wants is just the bible. Interesting. But what if I learn something that doesn't mesh with the bible?
Ahhh....then I must be wrong.
But what if I'm REALLY sure? If I think I've got anything figured out, if I think I've got great proof, if I finally have the right answer,
I must be a fool. My ways seem so right!
And heaven help me if I've come to a conclusion different than the bible (wrong to keep slaves anyone?) and try to share this conclusion, for:
Darn. Wait, there's more advice later on about what to do if someone tells you something that doesn't mesh with your particualr reading of the bible:
EVERY argument! Sheesh. So if my data refutes the bible, turn it on its ear, make that data captive to christ! That whole nul hypothesis thing, worthless eh? "Get a round peg for data? Just jam that son of a gun into the square god-hole conclusion! Force it hard enough you'll find a way to make it fit!"

But then again, why even try, since:
Plus, it's all beyond our mind anyways:
I guess we can never comprehend the mysteries of god. Just too far beyond us. Guess we'll just never know why god planted tens of thousands of independent evidences for evolution when his scripture says six days. Our minds are so little, he must be right, we must be wrong.

Hey look! Sure enough! If it doesn't make sense, it must be God!
and
and
Sheesh the thoughts of the wise are FUTILE! Guess we should all just give up. Study that bible, cause your own eyes will NEVER EVER be good enough. You can't trust what you see, can't trust what you hear, and can't trust what you reason.

Sounds to me like this is a god of the ignorant hoping to stay ignorant. But he really couldn't want to avoid everything of knowledge outside the bible, right?

I don't know folks. Sounds like this God doesn't want us prying into his affairs. Afraid of what we might find. Afraid of what most of us here did find.

But don't take my word for it. Don't take ANYONE's word for it. Read that bible and see.

wildernesse

Thank you for both the verses and your commentary. I do appreciate it.

--tibac

Rhea

Angrillori, not only did you just save me a TON of work to cite my memory of this, but you also did a much more complete job than I would have done. My thanks!

So - Wildernesse, Christian - does that answer your question? Am I wrong in thinking
?

Calzaer

Christian:
So a God who allegedly wants everyone to go to Heaven has a system set up were only the most FORTUNATE become Christians?

"Fortunate" in what sense? That you never had a critical thinking class? Or "fortunate" in the sense that you weren't born to Shinto parents?

If that's true, God can't be perfect.

Magus:
Silly me, but isn't it up to you to provide POSITIVE evidence? I can write a big book that says I'm the second coming just as easily as the apostles did.

Magus55

No, because there is nothing to prove. There is no contradictory evidence, only assumptions, therefore until you can prove there IS contradictory evidence, we aren't required to provide evidence against it. No need to defend something to be true when it can't even be proven to be false.

Christian

Lori,

Rhea’s assertion was that the Bible forbids and calls sinful:
1 – Any questioning of God or the Bible.
2 – Using wisdom.
3 – Being intellectual.
(Please correct me if I am mischaracterizing, Rhea.)

PS 119:99 I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on your statutes. 100 I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts.

You assert from this verse that the wisdom and knowledge we are commanded to seek after is JUST the Bible. But no such restriction is found in the text itself. This Psalmist is simply saying that he is wise because he has studied scripture.

From the text it is valid to infer that:
- Studying God’s law makes you wise.
- Wisdom is found in God’s law.
- The more you study God’s law the wiser you will become.

From the text it is not valid to infer that:
- The only acceptable place to gain wisdom or knowledge from is God’s law.
- There is no other source of wisdom or knowledge beside God’s law.
- We are commanded to ignore any source of knowledge or wisdom that is not God’s law.
- We are commanded to turn our brains off every time we encounter something other than God’s law.

Your claim was “the wisdom God wants is just the Bible.” This verse does not say that. A more accurate statement would be: “the most perfect source of the wisdom God wants is found in the Bible.” See the difference?

PR 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
PR 3:6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

Your conclusion about this verse is valid. If you learn something that truly (not just at first glance) does not mesh with the Bible, then you are wrong. This could be in two different ways: either your understanding of what the Bible says is incorrect, or the thing which you have learned is incorrect (either bad data or incorrect conclusion).

The actual point here is not your thought process, but what you actually put into practice. Gaining understanding is not forbidden here … you are just cautioned that when it comes time to act the biggest factor in deciding how to act should be a reliant trust on God. Of course God’s words tell us about God, so your inference is correct.

However, this does not support any of Rhea’s specific assertions. It does not forbid questioning, using wisdom, or being intellectual. Neither does it call those things sinful.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.

You interpret this to mean that if your ways seem right in your eyes then you must be wrong. But the verse does not imply that.

Look at the context. All of chapter 12 is about how people should react when dealing with advice from other people. This verse is not a reference to God. It is asserting the general principle that you should listen to whatever advice other people have to offer, rather than stopping up your ears and ignoring them because you think your way is right (and not in need of improvement or correction.)

In fact, this verse flies in the face of Rhea’s assertions. It is encouraging us to seek wisdom from other people. God likes it when we do that. Read the whole chapter for context and that will become clear.

PR 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.

As best as I can tell from your comments, you imply that this is a prohibition or at least a discouragement against giving personal opinions. That is not a valid interpretation of this verse.

First let me point out that this is standard Hebrew parallelism. The first line and the second line are just two ways of saying the same thing. They are two sides of the same coin. Most of Psalms and Proverbs is written in this poetic device.

So this verse equates finding no pleasure in understanding with delighting in airing your own opinions. Loving to do the one is equating with not caring for the other.

In short, this verse says “don’t be an empty headed blabber-mouth.” Or restated positively “shut your trap and try actually thinking before you speak.”

Another point that flies in the face of Rhea’s assertions. This verse is encouraging people to think rather than just spouting their own opinions all the time.

Again, the context supports my interpretation. Look at the surrounding verses, noting the theme here and the parallelism in each verse.

PR 17:27 A man of knowledge uses words with restraint,
and a man of understanding is even-tempered.

PR 17:28 Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent,
and discerning if he holds his tongue.

PR 18:1 An unfriendly man pursues selfish ends;
he defies all sound judgment.

PR 18:2 A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.

PR 18:3 When wickedness comes, so does contempt,
and with shame comes disgrace.

PR 18:4 The words of a man's mouth are deep waters,
but the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook.

PR 18:5 It is not good to be partial to the wicked
or to deprive the innocent of justice.

PR 18:6 A fool's lips bring him strife,
and his mouth invites a beating.

PR 18:7 A fool's mouth is his undoing,
and his lips are a snare to his soul.

And my lunch break is short today (it’s Monday in Korea), but I’ll be back later. Thank you for directing our attention to scripture!

Respectfully,

Christian

Philosoft

Oh my. Are you serious? Surely a quick mental perusal of all things fictional-yet-not-disproven would tell you that this is an egregiously unreasonable epistemolgy?

Magus55

Quite serious. Without any proof that there actually is contradiction in the Bible, and not just an individuals assumptions based on misinterpretation, we don't need to defend it because there is nothing to defend. We believe the Bible is the Word of God and has no contradictions when studied in depth. Until you can disprove that, our beliefs remain the same and don't require defense.

And the Bible doesn't fall under the same criteria as "all things fictional " because it hasn't been proven fictional in the first place. When a Sci-Fi writer, writes a book and its put in the fictional section of the book store, its fictional because the writer stated so. The Bible has historical accounts, written eyewitness testimony, and claims with factual basis - therefore until otherwise founded, it hasn't been proven fictional.