LateApex

Lets add a bit more...Teachers also stay an extra week after school lets out for the summer. And lets be nice to the middle and high school teachers who have exams finish on the last day before winter break and then must spend at least one day of the winter vacation grading papers.

($31k/196)*241 = ~$38K

Now, the error in this calculation is your assumption that the teacher will be able to get a temp job lasting the 3 to 4 weeks of winter vacation that pays $158 per day. And then that teacher will also have be able to find a temp job for the summer paying that same amount. Doesn't sound very likely.

Not to mention that teachers also tend to use the summer break to take college level courses required to maintain their teaching certificate.

That really depends on the company and the school district. Most Fortune 500 companies provide similar or better benefits to those given to public employees.

Unfortunately, I've not been able to find an objective study that shows the average overtime donated by employees for various employment sectors. I do have anecdotal evidence from observing my middle school teacher mother-in-law, which indicates that on average she spends 4 hours everyday, including weekends, during the school year grading papers and preparing lessons. She may be atypical, however, I doubt it. The only individuals I've seen in private sector who put in those kinds of uncompensated hours on such a regular basis are senior managers who at the minimum are earning 3 times a teacher's salary. Of course I have recommended a solution to my mother-in-law that would reduce her overtime...don't give any homework that requires grading and give only 1 test for each grading period. She did not think that provided enough feedback to the student in order to give them a quality education.

So, lets be nice and throw some weekend days worked into the equation and simply assume that the overtime on a workday is equivalent to what any salaried employee would donate. I checked a local high school's calendar and counted 31 weekends that were preceded by a school day...lets let them skiv off a few weekends and call it 20 worked days.

($31k/216)*241 = $34.5k

Hmmm...that's getting down there.

Would you like to add in the donated supplies that many teachers purchase of their own volition so that students may have pencils, and paper? Or the classroom decorations teachers buy to give students an interesting learning environment? Would you like to consider the cost of the college classes required to maintain teacher cert, which is paid by the teacher and not reimbursed by the school system? Would you like to consider that most teachers find it nearly impossible to get time-off approved to take care of their own children or to even leave early due to illness because administrators have to live within a thin budget that frequently is short on dollars for substitute teachers?

Would you like to talk salary differentials in other states? Florida's starting teacher salary is only $27k...what does that do to the calculation?

($27k/216)*241 = ~$30k

Would you want to get a bachelor's degree plus certification and then have to supervise 30-40 squirming kids or hormonal teens for 6 hours per and then supervise the really unruly ones to whom you've given detention for another hour for the equivalent of $30k? Not me bud!

As someone else mentioned...there seems to be a teacher shortage. Simple economics indicates that if the pay was considered fair, then a shortage would not exist. Therefore, a shortage in and of itself indicates that the compensation is not considered fair by the employable population.

nermal

Nope. No error there. The time off is a perk those in private industry don't have. If you want to compare wages, you have to compare them based on time worked. How much would the average engineer or middle manager be willing to give up for summers off? I can't quantify that and neither can you. The comparison still holds.

And their pay goes up accordingly. Many in industry also take personal time to stay on top of their game. My wife, an engineer, has flown out of state multiple times on weekends to take seminars in her field. She didn't get paid for her time. And what about the extra effort she put in to get an engineering vice humanities degree? Does that count for nothing?

Verify this please. Also, show me a Fortune 500 company who's retirement packages allows its employees to opt out of social security.
I haven't looked into it, but I know from experience that a 40 hour week for salaried (professional) employees is certainly not the norm.
I'm betting your mother in law is atypical. No doubt inexperienced teachers put in considerable time to learn the ropes and develop lesson plans, but those with experience and solid lesson plans are screwing themselves if they are putting in those kinds of hours. Those teachers I know have as much or more free time in their day as anyone in P.I.
Consider, the school day is about 6.5-7 hours. During that time teachers have a planning period of 1 hour. If they put in on average two extra hours a day after school, there is no reason they cannot work a 9+ hour day like the rest of us. Unless they assign tests every day to every class, 3 extra hours is more than enough to stay on top of the work load.
The exception, of course, are those teachers who coach, teach drama, etc. But that is their choice, isn't it? Do they request extra pay or refuse to participate?

Yep, shows if you torture something enough, you can make it squeel just about any message you want. As before, 3 extra hours a day for an experienced teacher is more than enough to get the job done, unless she simply enjoys grading papers, etc.

Engineers have to buy boots, carharts, gloves, etc. Office employees have to buy suits and have them cleaned and pressed. Some professionals even have to eat lunch in expensive places on their own tab to get ahead in the world. Then there's all those damn girl scout cookies. Please. Let's leave personal expenditures out of this; all professions have their costs.
Hmmm....teaching is the only profession which doesn't pay the same everywhere?

Well, when you put it like that, after you've tortured the numbers down...
How about this, No one goes into teaching blind. They all know about the 6 horrible hours, the kids, the detentions, and the pay is discussed up front. So you take the job knowing what it is, and what you'll be payed, and then bitch about being underpaid?

A quick internet search in districts nationwide for open teaching positions shows no such shortage, presently not even in the math fields. The exceptions, of course, are the inner city and deeply rural schools. The teacher shortage is overblown. My son's grade school teacher (2nd) was laid off due to declining enrollment, and cannot find a job in the Denver area.

Ed

Gawdawful

I'm not even going to get into any hours or days calculations or the merit pay systems. Teachers work hard for their money, at least the good ones do. I think teacher pay has little to do with respect or societal position, I think it is almost entirely market based, capitalism at work. I've never heard of a locale that had a teacher shortage that wasn't solved by higher pay, Wyoming in the energy boom era of the early 80s for example. The lowest paid teachers are almost invariably teaching in areas where the average pay is low. Here in Oklahoma there is a lot being made of a number of teachers and administrators moving to Texas for the increased pay there, one I heard of moved there for a $10K a year increase in pay, but what was not mentioned was that where she moved, her house payment increase would eat up most of that. The point missed in this situation is that there is still a waiting list of qualified teachers to take their places, positions don't sit unfilled because of the low pay. There are more than enough educators to fill the available positions. If those people want more money they should go into a career where there is a shortage and thus high pay, nursing for example; it is not uncommon for RNs to make $25 to $30 an hour even here in Oklahoma. Teaching or nursing, either can be a satisfying career working with people for their betterment, but both work very hard for their money.

Me, I'd rather make minimum wage at a gas station than be a teacher.... or a nurse, both jobs are too tough and have a lot of responsibility; The money isn't even a consideration, I wouldn't want their jobs if they paid $100K a year.


Warren in Oklahoma

LateApex

Sorry, if you want to compare hourly wages we are going to have to come up with some research that has been done to show the average total compensable and non-compensable hours worked by employment sector. Otherwise the only comparison that is not moot is of annual salary. In which case there is no argument...teachers are underpaid.

The classes only allow them to maintain their certification, which allows them to continue teaching. If the teacher goes back to school and earns a masters or PhD, then they can expect a pay raise...perhaps that is what you are thinking of.

Your saying that the company your wife works for did not pay for all or part of the airline ticket or hotel or the tuition for the classes? If not, your wife's company sucks! Even the attorneys and CPAs at my current organization are reimbursed for the cost of the continuing education hours required to maintain their licenses.

For teachers in my area, the travel and tuition for the continued certification courses are not reimbursed at all...none...nada...nothing.

Absolutely not! It counts for whatever the market will bare to pay for her skills. The question for you as parent is: what is my son's education worth? What % of time annually is his mind being molded by his school and his teachers. Would you prefer that his development be molded by someone who is satisfied in their work or by a disgruntled employee? And what compensation do you believe is fair in order to ensure that satisfaction...what compensation would you demand to feel satisfied performing that same work?

Well, in my state the teachers accrue 8hrs of leave per month worked and 8hrs of sick. The pension plan is a full contribution - defined benefit with 6 years to vest. If you don't stay with it for 6 years, you got bupkis. The defined benefit is 47% of the average of the highest 5 salary years...that is base salary without any geographic differentials or extracurricular bonus. Retirees are guaranteed a 3% COLA every year. Retirement is after 30 years or at age 62. Early retirement brings heavy penalties and is basically not worth it unless you have no other choice. Upto 480 hours of annual leave and .25 of sick leave are paid upon retirement. Anything over 480 hours of annual is lost.

I've never heard of that ability for the teachers who retire here? Is that something that is available in CO?

That is certainly possible...she has been teaching for nearly 30 years and is one of those bitch teachers who gives homework every night to be turned in the next day and a test every Friday.

It depends on the school's needs. Most advertise for teachers thus:

MATH CURRICULUM & INSTRUCTION-COACH

This indicates a position that teaches math and is also a PE coach. The person who applies knows what to expect.

If the teacher decides to sponsor the chess club, then it is their choice...but that may not mean extra pay unless the district has the cash available and has a policy to pay teachers to do the extracurricular. Most of the one's that I am aware of do not pay for extracurricular.

You are absolutely right...they do go into it eyes open. However, we all know that sometimes someone moves our cheese. From what I have observed, the working environment for teachers has been in decline...class sizes have been steadily increasing as district budgets tighten, student discipline has become an increasing problem due to a variety of reasons, and support from administration has weakened in the face of potential liability and litigation. As a result 60% of teachers leave the profession after 5 years as shown by a Texas A&M study published late last year.

I don't think they advertise those jobs on Monster.com.

A quick internet search shows me that there are 42 teacher positions and 32 teaching assistant positions still unfilled in the Denver Public Schools. And classes in Denver start when? Perhaps your son's teacher was laid off for other reasons.

Another quick internet search shows that California, Texas, Oklahoma, Georgia, New York, Delaware, Connecticut, Nevada, and Florida (which recently passed a class size reduction amendment to its constitution) have all suffered a teacher shortage in the last few years and as a result have put in place incentives or relaxed requirements in order to hire the number of teachers needed.

nermal

Uh. What? How about, you get paid x amount per year, you work y hours, so you get x/y dollars per hour? Or does it need to be more complicated to prove your point.
As I've said previous--teachers work about the same hours per day than other professionals, so a comparison of pay per days worked is a valid comparison.

The pay scales here go something like:
Starting w/ BA
Starting w/ BA + x credits
Starting w/ BA + y credits
and so on...
You don't have to make Master's to get a pay increase.

Oh, they paid her flight, hotel, etc. but not her time for being out of state away from her family. If she wants to take college courses, she pays for them (she is strongly encouraged to persue her Master's on her own duckets.)
Having to maintain one's proficiency at one's own expense isn't that unusual. I don't think we want to bring lawyers, CPA's et. al. into the comparison. Can we agree they are a special class?

The value of his education has no limit to me, so should teachers be making Ben Afflec wages? Is that your point?
Day care workers should be making in the 100K per year range if that's our criteria.
Pediatricians should all be billionaires, after all, what's your child's health worth to you?

I prefer to respect the value of his education through my participation in it, not by worshipping teachers. I'll pay teachers what the market will bear, which is about what other people with their education will earn.

Sounds better than my plan. Don't forget, you can buy out early and earn retirement elsewhere in addition. Also, anything over 30 years increases the percentage in the calculation.

AFAIK, it's true for teachers everywhere. They don't pay social security, because they contribute to a state run retirement plan.

Never read the cheese book.
I have heard the 60% study, and don't take issue with it. I attribute a good deal of it to the type of person who starts out teaching. They get out of high school, go to college, then return to school with unrealistic expectations, remembering their time at that grade level, and the teachers they had.
Suddenly: Damn, there's politics involved. Crap, these people expect too much of me. Shit, this is a hard job!
I think if more people worked in other fields before taking up teaching, they'd realize that most jobs are tough, involve politics, and just plain suck sometimes. Then when they teach they wouldn't have such lofty expectations.
I haven't been able to find a differentiation in the attrition rate of "newbie" teachers (never worked in industry) and people who teach after a stint in the private sector. I'm betting it's much lower for the latter.
No, they advertise on the school district web sites.
What you are seeing is the effect of people who filled job positions then reniged (sp?). In the late spring, there were much fewer open positions. The 42 positions will be filled without difficulty. As for teaching assistants, well, we're not talking about them, are we?
Yep, you hear about relaxed requirements everywhere. Look into them. Denver "relaxed" their requirements too, but don't bother applying unless you are an experienced teacher.

Florida may be an exception, due to the legislation. I'm certainly not saying there aren't local shortages, just as there are local shortages in virtually every field, except perhaps network engineer at the moment.

As I said, there are certainly local shortages in the inner cities and rural areas. I just don't see a shortage overall, I only see a lot of hype.

Ed

LateApex

Well, you speculate that they work the same hours as other professionals. But that may or may not be the case. Since we do not know the total hours worked (compensable and non-compensable) by profession, an analysis based on hourly wage is flawed.

However, I did do a little more in depth internet research and learned that in the manufacturing sector the average overtime peaked in 1998 at 4.9 hours per week. Given the 241 working days per year that we have been using that gives roughly 2170 working hours. The only similar data I could find for teachers was from the National Education Association, so I would not assume their data is unbiased. However, for 1996 they indicate that the average annual total hours for teachers was 2303.

If you want apples to apples, we can either look at annual total hours worked based on the available data or purely at annualized salary.

As far as how much a 2 month summer break would be worth to non-teachers, let me ask you how much of an annual cut in salary you would be willing to take if your boss came in on Monday and said that you would have to take a two month unpaid vacation every year? Personally, I budget my personal expenditure based on my expected annual earnings. In order to lose 2 months of salary I would have to seriously change my life style. And I value my life style more than a 2 month unpaid vacation every year.

Interesting. Obviously there are differences based on location.

I can tell you that in Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, Louisiana, South Carolina, Texas and Virginia that credits to continue certification do not increase salary. Only additional degrees.

My turn to ask you to verify this please. From what I have seen, most organizations of the size of a school district offer some kind of tuition reimbursement program for their employees. The ones with which I personally have experience would reimburse some or all of the tuition based on the grade achieved in the class.

I only mention them as examples of employees who have a type of certification that requires continuing education. If you prefer to supplant Professional Engineers, or state licensed dental hygienists, or RNs, etc...that is fine.

Well, lets be realistic. I'm speaking more of a certainty equivalent and that would be based on your ability to pay considering that your annual available dollars for expenditures is a zero sum game. If you spend a dollar on your son's education you cannot spend that dollar on food. There must be a balance there given limited income.

Now, the question becomes whether you are paying more or less for the education than the utility you are receiving by providing your son an education. If you would be willing to pay more to keep your son in school then you are getting some education utility for free. On aggregate the total amount spent on education within a school tax district should equal the tax collected. However, a market failure exists if you cannot find people with the qualifications you need who will supply the education for the amount offered. That situation seems to exist in more geographic areas than it does not.

Unfortunately, that is not the definition of what the market will bear. You may be surprised to learn that on average surveyors earn more than civil engineers even though the education required to earn a surveyor's license in most states is significantly lower than what is required to get a civil engineering PE certification. Evidently the market is willing to pay them more even though they have less education.

Equilibrium is reached when neither under-employment nor over-employment exists within a human resource sector. Given that many school districts are providing hiring incentives, and lowering qualifications in order to attract teachers we have a clear indication of a sector out of equilibrium.

I did mis speak about the annual leave...that is only for staff not for teachers.

More research (Nov 20, 2002 Money Magazine): 85% of large corporations provide both a defined benefit pension similar to public employee plans as well as a 401k style defined contribution. Most of the defined contribution plans included matching of at least 50% of up to 5% salary (outliers include EDS who only pays 25% for up to 2% and Abbott Labs who pays 250% for up to 2%).

BTW, I left out health insurance. Here, there is no employer contribution for dental or vision...it is all employee paid. I know that Denver does kick in money for dental and vision(about 90% for single and 25% for family coverage). The minimum employee contribution in Denver for HMO is $12 for single, but escalates to $415 for family...PPO family is $513. The highest employee contribution from a large corporation was $365 if you are employed by USAA.

Yes, you can buy retirement years at the rate of 35% of high average salary per year purchased.

That is a bit of a contradiction to what you said earlier about teachers going into the profession with their eyes open to the challenges they would face. But I agree that many probably do believe that they are up to the challenges and discover that there are other jobs that are either easier (and possibly pay less, but could pay the same or more) or are equivalently difficult but pay enough to make the challenge worth the effort.

I would not disagree with that hypothesis, but I would want to see a regression analysis to convince me that previous work experience in shitty jobs had the highest correlation to lower turn-over. I would suspect that another likely factor is the individual's decision that teaching children is more altruistically rewarding than their other career.

Sounds like more speculation...I wonder how many positions administrators will compromise on the quality of the candidate in order to get a body in front of the blackboard by the time students arrive.

From what I understand, teachers find out if their contract will be renewed either just before summer break begins or just after school lets out, which then causes a flurry of advertisements to replace those who have effectively been terminiated rather than downsized. However I also understand that teachers tend to resign during the summer break...from the stories I've been told, the administrators put a great deal of pressure on teachers to complete the contract year if they indicate that they want out before classes break.

Well, all you need do is run a google search for "teacher shortage" and the state name. If they have had a shortage, it will show up.

If it is hype, then entire states would not need to offer incentives to attract new teachers. Even if we agree that there may be a teacher shortage only in rural and metro areas, then that is an indication that people are only willing to be teachers in the burbs and that some factor discourages them from being willing to work in the city or country. Unfortunately, the way to make a job more desirable for qualified candidates is to pay more money if all other variables stay the same.

xorbie

I don't care much for fancy calculations and the such. Here is the bottom line. Teachers make $40 k / year - and that's the lucky ones. And it doesn't get higher than this. In a corporation, someone with an equivilent college degree might start out here, but with hard work they can get a nice bonus, even a raise. No such option for teachers, except for becoming a principal. The odds of this are very, very low. Not to mention that it means giving up teaching, the love of which is really usually the motivating factor here. Thus, teachers might be payed only slightly below national average, but they also have no room for upward mobility through hard work. This means they have little outside incentive for going that extra mile. For some teachers, they can provide this for 30 or more years. Others cannot. Do you want them teaching your children?

Also, ditto what several others were saying about work conditions. Teachers have some of the shittiest work conditions out there. Teaching kids who don't care, teaching in unventilated rooms, no AC, no heating, etc.

Moreover, "slightly below national average" is simply not good enough for me. Teachers really do provide one of the most valuble jobs in society, and are payed so little for it. Without good schools, our society will (and does) crumble. And good teachers are vital for a good school.

I am not asking that teachers be payed $200,000 each. But at least excuse their college debts if they are willing to work where they are needed, at least offer some sort of bonus for marked improvement. And this goes not just for teachers, but for schools in general. They need money, and a lot of it. I will repeat what I said in the OP, which is that many, if not most, of society's ills are stemmed from poor education or none at all.

Gurdur

Xorbie,
teachers indeed are a nation's greatest assets.

Speaking as someone who used to work in the governnment paying subsidies to students (both nationally, and as aid internationally), I learnt three interesting things:

1) Teachers are way under-paid practically everywhere on the globe.
This leads to:

2) A bad social view of teachers
(for example, the saying, Those that can do, do; those that can't, teach)

3) And consequent lack of desire to go into teaching, which is a very real problem when providing aid to a community --- since the only real aid is when you train enough 'native' teachers, but if everyone wants to do something else instead that pays better and has higher social apparent "value" upon completing studies, then the aid becomes useless and a nasty trap over the very long-term.
_______

P.S.
BTW, I have no idea why you should think it is such a bad idea to debate me.

I am only in a bad mood if pushed there.

xorbie

Oh that comment I made about you was misinterpreted by the perosn you were debating to make it seem like people agreed with him. It was a sign of respect... you had so many statistics, I was saying I would not want to debate you because of this.

Gurdur

Well, I might as well apologise to you too.
I myself misinterpreted the tone and direction of one of your posts in that awful thread, and over-reacted lashing out at you.
Sorry.
I was in an extremely grumpy mood, since I don't like poseurs or people trying to bully me, and once one gets in the mood for ripping out the guts of wannabe prats, it's difficult to stop.