Berenger Sauniere

Having read the Concordat of 1933 which was signed by Eugenio Pacelli (later Pius XII) I'm going to stand by my original assertion that he was a Nazi supporter. If someone can prove the signature a fraud I'll rethink my position. I also re-edited my OP back.

Vorkosigan

Pius also never objected to Catholic clerics running death camps Filipovic-Majstorovic), Cathlic clerics acting as dictators (Tiso) and of course, called Franco's Spain the highest level of human civilization when he pinned a medal on him in the fifties. Pius also had Te Deums sung in all the Cathedrals when Hitler was saved from an assassination attempt, and suppressed an enyclical that would have attacked the Nazis for their attacks on the Jews. At no time did Pius ever attack Nazi policy, nor did he ever stop the hundreds of priests who helped the Nazis from doing so, nor did ever appeal to Hitler as a Catholic, or excommunicate him, etc. Bottom line, if he wasn't a supporter of Nazism, he was certainly the next best thing.

Vorkosigan

daemon

Saying the Pope is the leader of all Catholics, while technically true in a sense, seems a little misleading. The Pope, especially in the modern Church, is seen as distant and out-of-touch by many Catholics; his statements and directives are often ignored or even openly disputed by Catholics. Most Catholics I've come in contact with ignore the prohibition on birth control, and some are genuinely upset that the Pope declared the idea of women being priests or marriage for priests completely unthinkable.

The KC, which is not called an order, as it is a related but independently created and controlled organization, I would not characterize as cultish, regardless of its degrees and even its rituals. There is no individual who controls it, no major religious philosophies specific to it, and its purpose is not one of worship, as the Church itself is seen to take care of those "needs."

Toto

The Catholic Church is NOT a democracy.

<a href="http://www.kofc.org/faith/faith.cfm" target="_blank">Knights of Columbus</a>

But we all know that Catholics cannot constitute a cult - they own too much real estate.

Berenger Sauniere

From information given by the Knights of Columbus themselves: "Since its founding the Knights of Columbus has been in solidarity with the Catholic Church, the Holy Father..." I believe they require allegiance to these entities before membership is allowed. Therefore, I see the Pope as their leader. The points you make above are well taken though. It's not like the Pope is coming to the meetings and hanging out with his underlings.

I referred to them as an 'order' because they use the term in much of their own literature. The reason I see them as cultish is because of certain aspects of their activities are kept from non-members, or from the public at large. The secrecy reminds me of the mystery cults of old. I wonder if they would provide me with a list of their members who were in the United States Government during the years 1951-1954?

There's also the system of color-coded apparel, crosses and keys, crosses and swords, crosses and axes and my favorite of all, skull and crossbones. Maybe atheists need to get into this kind of thing to be accepted by society?

Over and above all that, the Knights of Columbus had an agenda to make a theological statement with the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States, something the original author had no intention of doing. Of course, the Catholic Church does have a history of reworking the words and works of others, so no surprise there. I just wish they would not sully the U.S.Constitution in the process.

daemon

Fair enough. Frankly, if the Catholic Church had had its way, "under God" would be the least of our worries--they declared the First Amendment heretical in the 1800s; man is not to be allowed religious freedom. Thankfully, the Americanist heresy spread far enough that they can't take a public stance against it anymore, but they never officially said anything to change it.

It should be noted that these same people feel no remorse over the events of the Inquisition; the only reason people aren't being tortured to death today is that the Church doesn't have enough power and recognizes that people don't approve--it would be bad PR. The Church does not change!
Heh, the KC's secret ceremonies are pretty silly, really, not to mention the ridiculous outfits. As far as I know, the secrecy aspects are mostly to give a sense of strong solidarity. If I honestly thought anyone should know what goes on in one of those, I would tell, but as I can see no reason to break my word, I won't. Chalk it up to silly men with even more peculiar superstitions and beliefs than normal.
You are correct here. The KC is very much politically oriented on limiting the rights of the people of the US.

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: daemon ]</p>