trillian

I understood the question but can see how a xian would be offended at the premise and the word "stupid" used in the title.

For an athiest what many xians say in arguments sounds like 2+2=1,344.279 and he wants to know why? His opinion is that it may be lack of critical thinking in this area. He wants others opinions from the outside looking in. It's the same as when a poster asks for the xian opinion of something, it has to come from that mindset. It probably could have been worded more PC... sorry markstake if I interpreted your ? incorrectly

Back to the Topic:
This thread does remind me of the OJ trial. My 2 best friends at the time (who happened to be black) both bright Engineers with Masters Deg.s were the only 2 people I knew willing to say that they thought he was innocent, conceding that "he probably knew something about it". My 2 very smart, rational thinking agnostic friends had temporarily lost it. They identified sooo much with the "group" of OJ that they suspended their disbelief.
When a person really wants to believe in something, the mind can come through with an explanation, no matter how bizarre. Pretty amazing.

I dont mean to be offensive to any xians, this is just my opinion of what "might" explain some irrational beliefs.

Take solace in the fact that if xians are right, then I'm eternally damned.

beastmaster

Hi Trillian. Nice post -- btw, there's a SoCal Infidels get-together on Apr. 12; check the Misc Disc board for the thread.

Well, I am an atheist, and I am not offended, just bemused. Using an ad hominem like "stupid" hardly shows off the critical thinking skills markstake lauds. /broken record

Yeah, Xns seem like they are from another planet, and there are plenty of uneducated "trailer-park" Xns who have no critical thinking skills whatsoever.

But I find a disturbing trend in the increasing number of Xns who are *hyper*critical. It's like they start off so skeptical, questioning everything, parsing logic and words until they end up with nihilism, and at the final turn, make that magic leap of faith and suddenly find God. It isn't a lack of critical thinking skills that sets them awry, it's an overabundance.

Somewhat related to the Xns who say that "even atheists have faith." They see logic and reason as being inherently incomplete. I don't know about markstake, but I have a tough time concluding that that is a "lack of critical thinking."

Another stripe of Xn is the Loyalty Xns. These Xns entertain grave doubts about Xnty. But for them, abandoning Xnty is as unthinkable as abandoning one's parents. There's no lack of critical thinking skills because they can see the problems. Yet, it's in their nature to prioritize the maintenance of the relationship over the authenticity of the relationship, whether with their parents or with God.

Interesting analogy. However, Xns are so diverse that it's hard to even begin to generalize to what extent Xnty depends on self-deception.

Scary but some Xns do take solace in that fact. /shudder

Godbert

Well, I have never in my life met a christian who seemed particularly smart - compared to maybe 20 to 30 atheists/agnostics who I'd call that. And that is based on objective criteria like performance in school and university. I don't think a religious upbringing can dumb you down a lot. In my opinion theists are just not too bright to begin with, that applies even more to new earth creationists - but I never met any of them because I spent my childhood in east germany and my adolescent/adult life first at a special school for mathematics and then universities.
So without trying to insult anyone, in my personal experience of 27years there was a very clear negative correlation between theism and intelligence.
But I've never come across a statistical study of this.

Sabine Grant

[QUOTE]Originally posted by beastmaster
[B]Hi Trillian. Nice post -- btw, there's a SoCal Infidels get-together on Apr. 12; check the Misc Disc board for the thread.

Well, I am an atheist, and I am not offended, just bemused. Using an ad hominem like "stupid" hardly shows off the critical thinking skills markstake lauds. /broken record

Yeah, Xns seem like they are from another planet, and there are plenty of uneducated "trailer-park" Xns who have no critical thinking skills whatsoever.
QUOTE

Salut Beastmaster.... from that last comment I assume that you establish the level of critical thinking skills based on education. ( plenty of uneducated "trailer park" Christians). Am I reading you right?

beastmaster

The average atheist is better educated than the average Xn, to be sure, and probably smarter to boot.

But, among Xns, I've met several outright geniuses, along with many good friends who are smart and intellectually curious, who happen to be Xns. Xn belief does not depend on a lack of critical thinking skills. Rather, I think that Xns tend to start at a different beginning point from atheists and use a completely different methodology.

Sabine, I suppose education tends to correlate with critical thinking skills, all else being equal. My point was merely that, although some Xns (facetiously characterized as living in trailer parks) may base their god-belief on a lapse of critical thinking, others do not.

Magus55

Well Godbert, in school i hardly study yet get good grades. In college last semester, i got a 3.9 GPA (4.0 is max)and made it on the Dean's list. My IQ scores are between 130 and 140 which is near genious ( whether you believe it or not), and basically a prodigy in music. Isaac Newton was Christian, Albert Einstein was Jewish ( although don't know how strong his beliefs if any, were). Now this isn't an attempt to brag. I don't think im better than anyone else at all. Just showing that beliefs really have nothing to do with intelligence.

There are plenty of smart Christians, and plenty of dumb ones. Same with atheists. Has nothing to do with beliefs.

Sabine Grant

Thank you for your prompt reply... I believe that life experience can be a motivator of critical thinking skills without education to support them. The simplicity of the unfortunatly named " white trash" folks has taught me that they can have a greater understanding of the reality of life than any of my education can support. In fact I can think of one family I interact with on a daily basis who continuously moves me because of their ability to consider life with a down to earth attitude while retaining their faith in God. But of course their thoughts are focused on making the best out of very little. On teaching their sons to earn each penny of what they will spend. To balance where the next priority comes from the next income check. To set aside needs that are not real needs.

I can see the use of obvious critical thinking when it comes to their way of life. Their trailer is a mansion to them. The orchard by them provides moments of fun harvesting free fruit which otherwise costs so much in the local grocery store.
They have to consider, choose, balance, evaluate each day. Nothing is theory anylonger. Everything is a practical application of their experience of life.

Godbert

that's funny

Albert Einstein made a point about not believing in a personal God although he might have been a pantheist, but I wouldn't really count that as theism even though the name implies it.
It's different for people who lived more than 50 years ago anyway because they did not know about DNA and so there was a lot more gap in human knowledge for God to fit in.
Also I seem to remember from another thread that you have not the faintest understanding of evolution, which is not your fault since you were educated in the US, so with your IQ and a few more years in college I'd say the chances are good you won't be a christian for long.

Cthulhu

Its trooly an onher to bee in the presents of such grate genious.:notworthy