Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Charles Darwin · 08-09-2003, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Family Man
Then you can't call it a universal morality.

Think of the implications here. If morality came from God, we'd all have the same sense of morality at all times and in all places. That clearly isn't the case, so morality isn't from God. I'll agree it is transcedent to any one person, but that doesn't mean it comes from God.

Hence, since much of Lewis's argument appears to be based on a false premise, isn't it surprising that skeptics would reject him as a lightweight?

I'm not here to defend Lewis. But I do think people's moral judgement, and the premise in the problem of evil (i.e., that evil exists) illustrate one of the problems with atheism (weak or strong). You write: "If morality came from God, we'd all have the same sense of morality at all times and in all places."

Why is that? Could people's morals not become altered, even corrupted? The fact that some people think pornography is OK doesn't mean morality isn't from God.

Charles Darwin · 08-09-2003, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WinAce
Almost like what one would expect if morality was an emergent phenomenon derived from interacting self-aware beings in a social network, I might add. I wonder why that is...

Ah yes, those emergent phenomena which somehow are derived from those interacting self-aware beings which somehow evolved into existence to form those social networks. My problem with your story here is that we live in a universe where amazing levels of complexity don't just happen. Things don't tend to fall together in this universe, so why should we believe that the most complex things of all did?

Demigawd · 08-09-2003, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charles Darwin
My problem with your story here is that we live in a universe where amazing levels of complexity don't just happen. Things don't tend to fall together in this universe, so why should we believe that the most complex things of all did?

Actually, we *do* live in a universe where "amzing levels of complexity" *do* just happen beyond our conception of anthropomorphic reality. Do you have anything to offer beyond consulting an ancient mythology? If not, then I have a myriad of other "just-so" mythologies that contradict yours. Care to address the entirity of human imagination with your chosen team's? Need to retreat into "I am inspired by the Holy Spirit (tm)" argument to refute all other mythologies? Thought so.

Charles Darwin · 08-09-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Demigawd
Actually, we *do* live in a universe where "amzing levels of complexity" *do* just happen beyond our conception of anthropomorphic reality. Do you have anything to offer beyond consulting an ancient mythology? If not, then I have a myriad of other "just-so" mythologies that contradict yours. Care to address the entirity of human imagination with your chosen team's? Need to retreat into "I am inspired by the Holy Spirit (tm)" argument to refute all other mythologies? Thought so.

We know from science, and all of our empirical observations what a rare commodity complexity is. No matter how we configure our experiments, we can't build perpetual motion machines, create a bacterium, or show how echolocation could have arisen.

It is our everyday experience, and it is codified in scientific laws: things don't tend to fall together. But in spite of all this built up knowledge, we are to assume that the phenomenal complexity that we *do indeed* observe is a product of natural laws because, after all, the God hypothesis is a myth. And because it is a myth, folks like me must have nothing more to fall back on than mysticism.

Sorry, if you're on the look out for unsupportable claims which must rely on mysticism you might look closer to home. Right, let's not worry about complexity, for it happens "beyond our conception of anthropomorphic reality." Meanwhile, we all know that it is those Christians who are appealing to the unknown. Let's not worry about all those witnesses to the resurrection, they must have been paid off, er something.

Family Man · 08-09-2003, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charles Darwin
I'm not here to defend Lewis. But I do think people's moral judgement, and the premise in the problem of evil (i.e., that evil exists) illustrate one of the problems with atheism (weak or strong). You write: "If morality came from God, we'd all have the same sense of morality at all times and in all places."

Why is that? Could people's morals not become altered, even corrupted? The fact that some people think pornography is OK doesn't mean morality isn't from God.

I'm not talking about individuals, but societies in general. If slavery is in fact immoral, then we should have had a sense of it being immoral at all times and at all places. That obviously is not the case. It doesn't make sense for slavery to be condoned in certain societies, but condemned in others, if morality comes from God.

Biff the unclean · 08-09-2003, 08:11 PM

We know from science, and all of our empirical observations what a rare commodity complexity is.
How can a person live in this day and age and know so little about science as you do? Did you not go to high school? Do you not even watch cable TV?
Complexity is the norm not the exception. Which is exactly what you would expect in a world where everything evolved.
No matter how we configure our experiments, we can't build perpetual motion machines,
That's because there is no such thing as magic
create a bacterium,
We'll be able to do that soon
or show how echolocation could have arisen.
We've been able to do that for decades. At least visit a natural history museum, the kids will love it.

It is our everyday experience, and it is codified in scientific laws: things don't tend to fall together.
No, you are just ignorant. That need not remain a permanent condition. You can�and should�educate yourself.
But in spite of all this built up knowledge, we are to assume that the phenomenal complexity that we *do indeed* observe is a product of natural laws because, after all, the God hypothesis is a myth. And because it is a myth, folks like me must have nothing more to fall back on than mysticism.
Yes, I'm afraid that's true. Do you really think the universe came about as the result of a magic word? Can you possibly think that people are a pile of dust that was blown on by magic breath, or magic spare ribs? Surely you know this is nothing butmyth, primitive myth at that.

Sorry, if you're on the look out for unsupportable claims which must rely on mysticism you might look closer to home.
You can't make unsupported claims in science, it doesn't work that way. How is it that you don't know that?

Right, let's not worry about complexity, for it happens "beyond our conception of anthropomorphic reality."
Science does not have an anthropomorphic concept of reality. It does not think that a big magic GUY in the sky created everything.
You are the one who is anthropomorphizing. You think that because people make things and the world is a thing that some "Person" made the world...that's what anthropomorphizing means.

Meanwhile, we all know that it is those Christians who are appealing to the unknown. Let's not worry about all those witnesses to the resurrection, they must have been paid off, er something.
There were no witnesses to the magical resurrection. There is no evidence that there ever was a Jesus.
:banghead: :banghead:

Family Man · 08-09-2003, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Let's not worry about all those witnesses to the resurrection, they must have been paid off, er something. [/B]

What, are you trying for the gullible poster of the year award? A number of people attested that they saw the golden plates that were the Book of Mormon. Should we bow to that uncorroborated "eyewitness" report and all become Mormons, or is the evaluation of the reliability of witnesses a little more complicated that than deciding whether they were "paid off or something"?

Charles Darwin · 08-09-2003, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Family Man
I'm not talking about individuals, but societies in general. If slavery is in fact immoral, then we should have had a sense of it being immoral at all times and at all places. That obviously is not the case. It doesn't make sense for slavery to be condoned in certain societies, but condemned in others, if morality comes from God.

Well I wasn't, necessarily, talking about individuals either. There is nothing that says that perversion of morality can't happen across entire societies.

Charles Darwin · 08-09-2003, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Family Man
What, are you trying for the gullible poster of the year award? A number of people attested that they saw the golden plates that were the Book of Mormon. Should we bow to that uncorroborated "eyewitness" report and all become Mormons, or is the evaluation of the reliability of witnesses a little more complicated that than deciding whether they were "paid off or something"?

Of course, I agree one doesn't automatically buy any story just because there were some witnesses. But really, there very little comparison between the 2 cases, in terms of #, documentation, and incentive (or should I say disincentive in the case of the early Christians). I suppose the Old Testament Messianic prophecies don't count either.

WinAce · 08-09-2003, 11:21 PM

Commandment 11: Thou shalt take thy ridiculous assertions to the evo/cre forum, where thou shalt have thine ass handed to thee on a silver platter.

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08-09-2003, 08:11 PM	#26
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	We know from science, and all of our empirical observations what a rare commodity complexity is. How can a person live in this day and age and know so little about science as you do? Did you not go to high school? Do you not even watch cable TV? Complexity is the norm not the exception. Which is exactly what you would expect in a world where everything evolved. No matter how we configure our experiments, we can't build perpetual motion machines, That's because there is no such thing as magic create a bacterium, We'll be able to do that soon or show how echolocation could have arisen. We've been able to do that for decades. At least visit a natural history museum, the kids will love it. It is our everyday experience, and it is codified in scientific laws: things don't tend to fall together. No, you are just ignorant. That need not remain a permanent condition. You can�and should�educate yourself. But in spite of all this built up knowledge, we are to assume that the phenomenal complexity that we do indeed observe is a product of natural laws because, after all, the God hypothesis is a myth. And because it is a myth, folks like me must have nothing more to fall back on than mysticism. Yes, I'm afraid that's true. Do you really think the universe came about as the result of a magic word? Can you possibly think that people are a pile of dust that was blown on by magic breath, or magic spare ribs? Surely you know this is nothing butmyth, primitive myth at that. Sorry, if you're on the look out for unsupportable claims which must rely on mysticism you might look closer to home. You can't make unsupported claims in science, it doesn't work that way. How is it that you don't know that? Right, let's not worry about complexity, for it happens "beyond our conception of anthropomorphic reality." Science does not have an anthropomorphic concept of reality. It does not think that a big magic GUY in the sky created everything. You are the one who is anthropomorphizing. You think that because people make things and the world is a thing that some "Person" made the world...that's what anthropomorphizing means. Meanwhile, we all know that it is those Christians who are appealing to the unknown. Let's not worry about all those witnesses to the resurrection, they must have been paid off, er something. There were no witnesses to the magical resurrection. There is no evidence that there ever was a Jesus. :banghead: :banghead:

08-09-2003, 11:21 PM	#30
WinAce Beloved Deceased Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 1,539	Commandment 11: Thou shalt take thy ridiculous assertions to the evo/cre forum, where thou shalt have thine ass handed to thee on a silver platter.

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