WinAce

Wow... I've read Farrell Till's comments on his tactics, but if you what you say is true I'm dealing with an even slicker character than I thought.

I wondered why the guy doesn't actually link to articles he "refutes" and why his "refutations" focus on about 3 paragraphs out of what usually sounds like a much larger article.

Anyway, I've saved his article on my hard drive so if he clandestinely changes it, I'll archive it at my own site. Also, the readers who do find my site will probably be surprised that I link to his "rebuttal", unlike he does

I take it you've had at least some person experience with "Holding"?

davidH

Ex-preacher,

I beg to differ.

Within the Bible there is the consensus on the existence of Hell.

Matthew 5 v 22

....Anyone who says "You Fool!" will be in danger of the fire of hell.

5v 29

....than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Luke 12 v 5

"Fear him who after the killing of the body has power to throw you into hell. Yes I tell you, fear him."

Then there's the parable that Jesus told about the man in hell.

I could go on.

Jesus believed in hell, as he claimed to be God he should know.
So why then did you say that there is no consensus within the Bible of the existance of hell?

As to what hell is for.....I think his words speak for themselves.

Ex-preacher, if you were a preacher surely you would know all this? And yet you claim the Bible does not agree on the existance of hell?
If Jesus talks about it, he can't be talking about a figure of speech but of something real.
Jesus doesn't deny it's existance but confirms it.

As for the nature of hell.
The Bible teaches that it is a place of torment, fire and a place where you are separated from God.

The duration of hell -
Mark 9 v 44
"...where the fire never goes out."

This is in response to whoever wrote about the lake of fire being only for the devil, false prophet and beast.

If you had read on a bit further you would have found this.

Does that explain the duration of hell?

As to the levels of punishment, the Bible doesn't see that as an important thing to mention.
Christians have had visions of hell and have seen different levels of punishment, but the Bible clearly teaches that it is a place where you don't want to be. And that is clear enough to me.

The Bible says that God is just. I believe that and what I don't know, I have faith knowing that God does best.

Sauron

Mostly, personal contributions to Jeff Lowder's rebuttal work. Jeff watched Turkel edit his documents in the middle of the argument, so as to totally invalidate the points Jeff had made.

That, and seeing several email exchanges involving Turkel. Evidently his goal is to collect accolades from his great, unseen Internet audience - and to hell with any sense of scholarly integrity.

You've been warned.

Sauron

There is?

Then explain why hell, as a place of torture and punishment, is never mentioned until the New Testament.

Boro Nut

If I remember correctly, not counting snakes I think she was.

excreationist

<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/afterlife.htm" target="_blank">Information about Christian beliefs and Bible verses about hell and the afterlife</a>

As far as I know, there is no mention of varying punishments in hell or the lake of fire... but on the other hand there are many passages about people receiving different rewards in the "kingdom of Heaven".

That isn't very good evidence that hell has varying punishments. God's "perfect justice" isn't always the same as ours anyway... e.g. Exodus 21:20-21 - don't punish a person who beats their slave and the slave survives at least a day or two.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

davidH

Sauron,

Are you saying that the Jews had no concept of a hell - even up to the time of Jesus?

ex-preacher

How old are you davidH?

Please read your Bible all the way through.

Hell is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Neither is heaven.

These two ideas were borrowed from Zorastrianism and incorporated into Judaism during the Babylonian captivity. During the time of Jesus, the Pharisees accepted the existence of heaven and hell, but the more conservative and literal Sadduccees denied them based on their absence from Scripture.

Matthew and Luke both copied from Mark.

Have you ever found it odd that the Jesus of Matthew is gung-ho about hell, but the Jesus in John never mentions it? Truly odd. Have you ever noticed that Paul never mentions hell. Not once.

Think, read, and think some more.

Sauron

Read what I said. "As a place of torture and punishment."