Seraphim

"Possessed by what or who? What on the earth are you talking about? "

My reply : Possessed as in Possesed by spirits ... I thought the question was simple one.

Reincarnation for example is simply process of a Soul entering a body (in womb) and been reborn with it - according to Hindusm and Buddhism.

Possession is therefore possible when a spirit/soul forcibly enters a body with another soul occupying it and tries to occupy it.

But then again, you not need to bother much if you don't believe in those stuffs.

The Lone Ranger

And the evidence that spirits/souls exist is . . . ? The physical nature of spirits/souls is . . . ? The evidence that they can and do "cling to the physical realm because they refused to accept death" is . . . ?

In any event, even if we assume that ghosts exist and have the properties that they're commonly believed to possess, how is it that they're able to defy the principles that everything else in the Universe seems to follow? They have very extraordinary characteristics indeed!

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In that context, just as you cannot fly now, I doubt if you die an untimely dead and return back as a ghost, you could fly then.

In the context of the above, are you suggesting that if I don't believe I'm bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of the universe, I'm not?

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My reply : So why such natural occuring phenomena seems to be taking shapes, move, make noises etc? It seems to me that I was watching something that independant of my own brain like movement of another person.

You might read up on hypnopompic and hypnagogic experiences (links were given a few posts ago). They're extremely well-documented, and can produce extremely convincing illusions. So can Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, mild forms of which, as was also mentioned above, are actually quite common.

Sleep deprivation can also cause extremely realistic and convincing hallucinations. Heck, even people who appear to be in perfect health sometimes see and/or hear things that aren't actually there. It may be nothing more than an occasional "glitch" in the brain.

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My reply : Mind showing me one of the laws which contradict with possible existence of a pocket of energy free floating in space?

No offense is meant, but what do you mean by "a pocket of energy free floating in space"? Conservation of energy is a very well-established principle; physicists can measure the energy exchanges in a system with an extraordinary degree of precision. Energy does not simply sit around. It's either stored as potential energy, or it's moving about and dissipating -- typically at an extremely high rate of speed.

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My reply : doing things which is physically impossible? Such as?

Some examples were given earlier, but: assuming they're made of matter: occupying the space that other matter does; moving with no apparent source of energy; moving themselves and other objects without either using energy or producing waste heat. Assuming they're made of energy: holding still and not immediately dissipating.

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My reply : And yet, our molecules are been hold together by energy which is considered electromagnetic as well. What makes us hold together? We should be flying in 100 direction at every second.

Electromagnetic bonds hold our molecules together, which is precisely my point. If "ghosts" are matter held together by electromagnetic bonds between their component atoms, they're subject to the same physical laws that all other matter is.

The electromagnetic bonds that hold molecules together, however, are not quite the same things as the electromagnetic waves that propogate energy through space.

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My reply : Assuming of course that a ghost could form itself into matter thus dissipate. What if the ghost could simply gather enough energy to become something like "excited" stated where it could be detected by those of living, then dissipate again when it couldn't hold it for long? Like Quantum mechanics where enough energy gathered in a matter to make it leap to become excited and "leap" only to dissipate and return to its normal once again?

I'm not sure what you're saying, here. Are you suggesting that ghosts can transform themselves from energy into matter at will? That would be a neat trick indeed.

Or are you suggesting that ground-state atoms are somehow invisible and intangible?

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My reply : Now that's an arrogant remark. You assume that Physicts and Mathematicians had learn EVERYTHING which there is to learn? I'm sure someone like Stephen Hawkings could disagree with that.

<ol type="1">[*]I'm pointing out that we have built up a very good working model of the world around us. No one is suggesting that it's complete.[*]If ghosts exist and have the properties that are commonly ascribed to them, their existence demonstrates that an awful lot of what we think we understand about the world is flat-out wrong.[*]If ghosts exist and have those properties, then we'll have to throw out an awful lot of our painfully-accumulated understanding of the world around us. How is it arrogant to point that out?[*]I'm pointing out that modern science seems to have a pretty good understanding of the world around us. You're suggesting that this understanding is flat-out wrong.[*]At no point did I state or imply that physicists and mathematicians have learned EVERYTHING there is to learn. I submit, however, that they have a pretty good understanding of the world around us, however, as is evidenced by the fact that we're communicating in the way that we are.
[/list=a]


"Normal" matter is either a solid, liquid, or a gas. A plasma is an ionized gas. The word for matter with very low levels of energy is cold. Ground-state atoms do not behave differently from excited atoms, except that they're rather less likely to emit photons.

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My reply : And what is a solid state? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that a solid state is simply a matter grouped together in more condensed form than those with another state. Take a human body for example, water cannot past through us because we have more condensed molecular state, true? But X-Ray (Gamma rays) could do so easily. In this context, a ghost could dissipate enough of its matter to go through another solid mass and come the other side.

X-rays and gamma rays are energy, not matter. Unless you're suggesting that ghosts can change themselves from matter into high-energy photons at will and then back again, your explanation doesn't work. If this is the case, does the lead-based paint in my walls explain why I've never been visited by a ghost?

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My reply : Nope, Ghost don't travel a lot from where it is situated, usually in a small area like a room or a house.

It's not just that ghosts would need to expend energy in order to move, they'd need to expend energy just to stay still, if they're hovering. (They never seem to sit down, as best I can tell.) Unless they happen to be exactly the same density as air, they'll have to expend energy just to stay still, since they'll have to overcome the earth's gravitational attraction to keep from being dragged downward. (If the ghost in question is lighter than air, it will have to expend energy to keep from floating up and into the atmosphere.)

Whenever energy is used, some of it is lost in the form of heat. A ghost should therefore give off heat as it works to move itself about. Not a lot of heat, admittedly, since your typical ghost seems to be a real lightweight, but some, nonetheless. That heat would be detectable with sufficiently-sensitive equipment. (The presence of a ghost in a room wouldn't make the room grow colder; it would make the room grow warmer.)

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To think back why it forms enough energy to be detected only to dissipate again, I could guess that the reason is that when ghosts moves or becomes excited, it could use that energy (which it gathered) to do so and remain in that place (in low energy form) till it gathers more energy.

One stores energy in matter. In chemical bonds, for example. If the ghost can store energy at need, it must be made of matter. If it's made of matter, it's subject to the limitations of matter-based entities.

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My reply : Assuming of course that you can produce unmoveable evidence to support your explainations. What I see here is mostly based on logics.

I'm not claiming that ghosts exist. I'm pointing out that no one has provided convincing evidence that they exist. It is up to the claimant to produce evidence that a thing exists. Until such evidence is produced, the only logical position is one of skepticism.

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As for well-established physical principles, I don't think there is such thing as a well-established physical principle. Even as we speak, there are physics and Mathematicians out there trying to improve our science. Nuf said.

I assert that if you drop a cannonball out your window, it will immediately begin to accelerate toward the earth's center at a rate of approximately 9.8 meters/second/second. You are, of course, free to prove me wrong.

If there are no well-established physical principles, then what have we scientists been doing for the past 300 years or so? Guessing?


Cheers,

Michael

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: The Lone Ranger ]</p>

Mad Kally

My mother is a psycho xian fundie and she thinks I am possessed as well as my computer and all the people who post on this website! She's NUTS! So is the whole concept of spirit or demon possession!

trientalis

Lone Ranger:

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Amie

Oh Kally...please tell your mom that its not your fault that your computer is posessed It happens..whatareyougunnado

Mad Kally

I don't react very well when I see someone talking about possession. My entire childhood was filled with people laying hands on me to rebuke demons or the devil. It's beyond my comprehension how anyone could believe such things. All they accomplished was to scare the hell out of me and make me cry.

I used to pray, "please god, make it stop!" and guess what? Lo and behold, it didn't stop..

Seraphim

"And the evidence that spirits/souls exist is . . . ? The physical nature of spirits/souls is . . . ? The evidence that they can and do "cling to the physical realm because they refused to accept death" is . . . ?"

My reply : I know it will end up here eventually. Asking about the prove of Soul and all which I covered some time ago. Since I don't want to repeat it again, ask what you want to ask and maybe I can convince you about Soul ... or at least show you that there is logic to it.

"In the context of the above, are you suggesting that if I don't believe I'm bound by the physical laws that govern the rest of the universe, I'm not? "

My reply : No, I meant that if you assume now that you cannot fly, your ghost will assume the same thing (since it is trying to mimic you) after your death. The physical laws that govern you know will take effect then as well because of what you know when you were living.

BTW - assuming that physical laws that we know is all there to govern the UNIVERSE is very arrogant statement since we only know what we know about Earth and area around it (even that is limited and in process of learning).

"You might read up on hypnopompic and hypnagogic experiences (links were given a few posts ago). They're extremely well-documented, and can produce extremely convincing illusions. So can Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, mild forms of which, as was also mentioned above, are actually quite common. "

My reply : I will read through later. Thanks.

"Sleep deprivation can also cause extremely realistic and convincing hallucinations. Heck, even people who appear to be in perfect health sometimes see and/or hear things that aren't actually there. It may be nothing more than an occasional "glitch" in the brain."

My reply : Nope, nothing to do with sleep deprivation or anything when I experience such things. I was wide-awake and in some cases, watching movies on my PC after office hours.

"No offense is meant, but what do you mean by "a pocket of energy free floating in space"? Conservation of energy is a very well-established principle; physicists can measure the energy exchanges in a system with an extraordinary degree of precision. Energy does not simply sit around. It's either stored as potential energy, or it's moving about and dissipating -- typically at an extremely high rate of speed."

My reply : No offense is taken. But I will wait for your laws of physics which the "ghost" said to have broken first before answering more. I have receive a few remarks especially from you and few others that existence of "ghost" is outside laws of physics and science YET receive none.

"Some examples were given earlier, but: assuming they're made of matter: occupying the space that other matter does; moving with no apparent source of energy; moving themselves and other objects without either using energy or producing waste heat. Assuming they're made of energy: holding still and not immediately dissipating."

My reply : And who said they made of matter? As far as I know, I been saying that ghost are simply energy.

Since they are energy to begin with, they could occupy area with other energy exist such as static in the air, heat etc. And since they are energy as well, they could gather other source of energy such as static electricity into themselves to make appearance thus producing "haunt" effect. This could explain why a person could feel a sudden chill or the hair on the back of the neck and forearm standing (usually happens in static environment).

"Electromagnetic bonds hold our molecules together, which is precisely my point. If "ghosts" are matter held together by electromagnetic bonds between their component atoms, they're subject to the same physical laws that all other matter is."

My reply : And which laws of physics that doesn't seems to fit into the picture, may I ask? If they are energy to begin with, they could gather more to a stage that they couldn't gather or hold it anymore thus dissipates.

"The electromagnetic bonds that hold molecules together, however, are not quite the same things as the electromagnetic waves that propogate energy through space. "

My reply : Mind showing me a Laws of Physics from which you brought this conclusion? And also prove (in ANY form) that the electromagnetic that bonds our molecules are not the same as those who holds together energy throughout space.

I grow up thinking that the bonds of electromagnetic which bonds molecules in our body is same thing that holds other objects else where. Example water molecules which when heated up, breaks free only to form under colder atmosphere as water again. Am I wrong?

"I'm not sure what you're saying, here. Are you suggesting that ghosts can transform themselves from energy into matter at will? That would be a neat trick indeed."

My reply : No, I suggesting that ghost could gather enough energy to appear solid (without mass) enough to be detected. I believe also that this is not something which is far fetched because water when heated behaves the same way.

"Or are you suggesting that ground-state atoms are somehow invisible and intangible?"

My reply : Do ground-state atoms (nuetral charged) gather together as they get charged up by the same type of energy?

"I'm pointing out that we have built up a very good working model of the world around us. No one is suggesting that it's complete."

My reply : That's the expression I receive from your statements, the model now is complete and we don't need to see any other possible explaination for something. Matter afact, that is what I got so far as basics of the argument, that Physics that we know for the past ... say 200 years is enough to make a complete picture of the world and the Universe around us.

"If ghosts exist and have the properties that are commonly ascribed to them, their existence demonstrates that an awful lot of what we think we understand about the world is flat-out wrong.
If ghosts exist and have those properties, then we'll have to throw out an awful lot of our painfully-accumulated understanding of the world around us. How is it arrogant to point that out?
I'm pointing out that modern science seems to have a pretty good understanding of the world around us. You're suggesting that this understanding is flat-out wrong. "

My reply : No, I have not suggested that modern science is wrong in any of my post, matter afact, I'm using Quantum Mechanics to demonstrate how Ghost/Souls could possibly exist from the 1st day I came to this forum.

Science is never wrong, misinterpreted or lack of information ... maybe. I just saying that a laws of science is shouldn't be used only to things we know but also to explore things that we may not know but have possibility of existence.

Take Black Hole in space for example. Einstein and Hawkings both said it existed but other than mathematical theory, NOONE able to prove it existed. Only recently NASA begin to get puzzling pictures of spots which they guess is a black hole. YET if anyone said Black Hole doesn't exist, I persume the Scientific Community will laugh him to death. Such a odd behaviour about the community which deprieve itself to follow science.

"At no point did I state or imply that physicists and mathematicians have learned EVERYTHING there is to learn. I submit, however, that they have a pretty good understanding of the world around us, however, as is evidenced by the fact that we're communicating in the way that we are. "

My reply : How do you know they have? Do you have a perfect understanding (mathematical models and all) of Quantum Physics and all? No, I doubt it even if you are a Physicist. In the end, you are assuming they are correct to up to a certain degree. Even I have not heard any of them (even Einstein who is considered to be smartest man on earth) proclaim that they know everything or they understood everything.

""Normal" matter is either a solid, liquid, or a gas. A plasma is an ionized gas. The word for matter with very low levels of energy is cold. Ground-state atoms do not behave differently from excited atoms, except that they're rather less likely to emit photons."

My reply : Thanks.
Normal state is out of the question since we could see, feel or detech with standard devices if ghost were in this state. Ionized gas as well could be detected UNLESS they remains unionized for a certain state and slowly gather energy to form an ionized state where it dissipate later and return back to unionized state again. So my money is either plasma or ground state atoms.

"X-rays and gamma rays are energy, not matter. Unless you're suggesting that ghosts can change themselves from matter into high-energy photons at will and then back again, your explanation doesn't work. If this is the case, does the lead-based paint in my walls explain why I've never been visited by a ghost?"

My reply : Changing state of energy from one level of exited state to another or drop to a lower level simply occurs with the amount of energy that one has.

Take water for example - matter which cannot fly or move around freely, yet when it heats to the point that it boils, its molecules dissipate and regroup again in a colder environment. From this context, I simply stating that ghost could have use absorbing/dissipating energy mechanism to move or even walk through walls. Because a wall is nothing more than rows and columns of ranged molecules held together by electromagnetic links, reduction of energy level to low enough state could enable another form of energy to past through.

"It's not just that ghosts would need to expend energy in order to move, they'd need to expend energy just to stay still, if they're hovering. (They never seem to sit down, as best I can tell.) Unless they happen to be exactly the same density as air, they'll have to expend energy just to stay still, since they'll have to overcome the earth's gravitational attraction to keep from being dragged downward. (If the ghost in question is lighter than air, it will have to expend energy to keep from floating up and into the atmosphere.)"

My reply : Got complex question here :

To move, they need energy. If they are energy to begin with (such as electromagnetic), they could use it to move around.
Heavier than air means they will be pushed downward and possibly to the centre.
Lighter than air means they could float and leaves the planet because of no anchor.

Before I could give a logical explaination, do our planet have Hidrogen and other gases that is lighter than air present in our atmosphere?

"Whenever energy is used, some of it is lost in the form of heat. A ghost should therefore give off heat as it works to move itself about. Not a lot of heat, admittedly, since your typical ghost seems to be a real lightweight, but some, nonetheless. That heat would be detectable with sufficiently-sensitive equipment. (The presence of a ghost in a room wouldn't make the room grow colder; it would make the room grow warmer.) "

My reply : Heat signature do exist, if you are willing to accept excited air molecules as the signature.

A ghost could have a very low-level energy state (as ground state). The sensation of feeling something past by (excite air molecules) could be the best we got in detecting such present, thus that could work as your heat signature, no matter how low it maybe. Remember the statement about statics which makes a person's hair on the back of his neck and forearms stand?

"... In chemical bonds, for example. If the ghost can store energy at need, it must be made of matter. If it's made of matter, it's subject to the limitations of matter-based entities."

My reply : Nope. You are looking at energy for matter's point of view, I'm looking at it at energy point of view.

Energy don't need to be stored and used in chemical or any other form to make such effect, it could become continous process from being a ground state energy to an excited energy and back into a ground state energy again.

You don't believe me? Well, sciencist already have such mechanism in working model using Quantum Physics. Laser is developed from such principle where light energh gathers enough energy to emit into a high condensed form of light. In no period throughout that process that a laser keeps the energy that it gathers.

"I'm not claiming that ghosts exist. I'm pointing out that no one has provided convincing evidence that they exist. It is up to the claimant to produce evidence that a thing exists. Until such evidence is produced, the only logical position is one of skepticism. "

My reply : OK, fair enough.

"I assert that if you drop a cannonball out your window, it will immediately begin to accelerate toward the earth's center at a rate of approximately 9.8 meters/second/second. You are, of course, free to prove me wrong. "

My reply : Yes, I could prove you are wrong by putting various obstacles along the way to slow down the time. Either way, I will not assume that ALL objects that falls out of my window accelarate in same speed and falls on the same time, it will depend on what those objects face through that journey which also counts.

"If there are no well-established physical principles, then what have we scientists been doing for the past 300 years or so? Guessing?"

My reply : All physics in the world starts in small amount of guessing, then calculating using mathematical model and when that finish, form a physical model. When those ancient astronomers said the world is round, did anyone went to space and prove that theory? Nope, they looked at the envrionment and assumed that it is the most logical deduction. In another word, YES.

Seraphim

"My mother is a psycho xian fundie and she thinks I am possessed as well as my computer and all the people who post on this website! She's NUTS! So is the whole concept of spirit or demon possession! "

"I don't react very well when I see someone talking about possession. My entire childhood was filled with people laying hands on me to rebuke demons or the devil. It's beyond my comprehension how anyone could believe such things. All they accomplished was to scare the hell out of me and make me cry.
I used to pray, "please god, make it stop!" and guess what? Lo and behold, it didn't stop.. "

My reply : O_o

What kind of mother could do such a thing? I know at least 2 people who were possessed and their families treated them properly.

Oxymoron

You find something illogical about hallucination?

Interesting thought: my wife is currently 5 months preggers. She tells me that foetuses can dream, and one must wonder exactly what they dream about. Swimming around in the dark with amniotic fluid whilst muffled noises and a constant "lub-lub" play in the background?

My point - speculative, but not greatly so: what we dream or hallucinate must be determined by what we know or believe we know or have experienced in the world. Suppose now that "visions" are commonplace (if infrequent) - most of us get them from time to time (without the aid of substances). But for most people, the visions are really really dull - a car where there isn't one, an extra teabag in the box, whatever. For others, with their head filled with ancient spiritual nonsense and having watched a few too many episodes of the X-Files, their visions are more acute, more specific, more devolved from everyday experience.

An aphorism: "You are what you allow between your ears"

That there are hot and cold spots in a house is proof? Is that really the best that can be done? People report all sorts of daft phenomena, especially if they have been prepped for it and are open to believing that sort of guff.

Oh p-lease. Just one ghost - just one out of the billions that surely must exist - has to get in front of a TV camera, do a little dance and a great interview afterwards. Y'know real, objective, no was-it-or-wasn't-it shenanigans. I get really bored with the argument that if you set up an experiment to detect ghosts, or psychic powers, or whatever, then suddenly they don't show and so conclude that the fact that there is no objective evidence of them is conclusive proof that they must exist.

"On the balance of probability" does not imply "sure". It just asks what is the more likely explanation given what we know about our world and what we speculate about it.

Mad Kally

I was NOT possessed. There is no such thing.