MrDarwin

Oh no, I'm sure they'd much rather debate whether an omiscient, omnipotent God can permit--or even cause--unnecessary suffering and still be considered benevolent.

brighid

RJS – Oohhhhh – you think this discussion contains a pack of wolves? I would suggest broadening your horizons and thickening your skin because despite the fact that you have been challenged to support your view – you have been treated rather gently and a few pages of debate in this forum is nothing. You haven’t even gotten through the warm up portion of our workout!

Perhaps you aren’t use to having people question the accuracy of your faith and it’s claims, well probably not as voraciously and thoroughly as you will have those claims questioned here. I encourage you to dispel the thoughts and myths your faith has taught you about atheists and any preconceived beliefs you have about why we are atheists. It will help you immensely toward a deeper understanding of those people you have to share a human community with. It will also help gain a better understanding of yourself and if you are capable of stepping outside the safe confines of established and approved theistic thought you may even discover a world previously unknown to you. And although this is my personal and subjective opinion, that world is a far better place then where the average theist confines himself to needlessly.

You seem like a well-intentioned person and that will count for a lot with us, but it will not count in the realm of debate and the accuracy of your claims. I would also suggest that if you haven’t already, familiarize yourself with the logical fallacies and their descriptions found in our Library, as well as at least a few of the articles in there so you won’t be caught out in left field. Please understand that you are about the upteenth theist that has come making the same claims, which to us is very tired. We have already been where you are. We have traveled your path and our shoes are quite worn. We have explored beyond your current juncture with theism and we KNOW what it’s like to be at your level of faith. However, you do not know what it is like to be on the “other” side so to speak. You have not made that journey and you are not yet familiar with the issues that to us are simply non-issues and no longer hold any rational basis for us (even though they were once strongly held, and deeply entrenched beliefs). We have had faith, we have “experienced” what we believed to be God in similar, if not identical ways that you have, we have prayed until our knees bled, cried for help with every fiber of our being, exhausted every option we could uncover to rectify our nagging feelings with our devout faith and desire to love and be loved by this God and yet we could not, even with our strongest passions reconcile our consciences and humanity with the morality, love or factualness of the Christian God or any other. If this damns us to hell, so be it. If you are comfortable with that and feel some sort of righteous indignation with this … well that in and of it’s self should cause you to examine your faith with a high powered microscope and question the foundations of the morality that allows you to find such a thing acceptable.

Brighid

RJS

Certainly you could see the friendly smile on my face as I typed "pack of wolves" and "fresh meat". That was intended to be humorous. Sorry if it offended.

And thanks for your review. I am aware that many many believers have come and gone making similar arguments, etc. I have been a Christian for 1 year, following a period of 10 years of agnosticism, which followed a Catholic childhood.

I find it hard to respond to 10 virtually simultaneous posts (from different people) each containing up to 10 questions.

I probably won't stay around the forum too long - I guess you might say I have entered the "pack of wolves" to see if you can shake my Faith.

So fire away, one question at a time please. thanks.

brighid

If you don’t stick around and only engage in a sparring match or two, how will you ever know if we can shake your faith? It seems as if you are trying whatever particular brand of Christianity on for a trial run, to see if it suits you. That is fine. We have all done it and it is a necessary part of your journey. You obviously have questions about this faith, or else you wouldn’t be here and it is acceptable to be unable to answer all of these questions in a timely manner and I appreciate you conveying that information. Usually, we get a bunch of theist posters that can’t handle the heat long enough to discover more about their faith, few if any have asked themselves any critical questions about it and therefore they are unable to answer the tough and necessary questions and thereby bail because the questions are too scary. Embracing those questions with full abandon and critically examining the implications of such ideas would leave them unable to honestly continue on their Christian path. This is frightening so they either spew religious platitudes and errant scripture as it were fact, or the leave before the questions penetrate too deeply. To me, this is always a sign of the weakness of Christianity and theism in general – at least the Big Three! Whatever you do, don’t wimp out on yourself by bailing here so quickly!

Sometimes even the smiley faces don’t convey the humor – I am sorry if I took your intention as anything other than humorous.


Brighid

Hans

ex-preacher

As I am an atheist I'll play the devil's advocate by supporting, in part, the theistic position.

Where one's mythology includes an eternal after life one's physical death is the mere transition from one state of existence into another. Our transition from the physical to the spiritual is simply mislabeled as death.

As no harm is experienced from this transition, causing it can not be considered evil.

I can not offer any arguments for suffering. Where god is capable of preventing as much I can not reason as to why he would allow it. I simply have to bow to ignorance and pass the torch to another advocate.

sidewinder

I think if you don't have the time and/or the inclination to answer some of the questions, you could simply inform the ones asking the questions. Why will you not stick around on the boards? I guess by your statement, your faith has not been shaken. Yet, it doesn't seem like you've done much to challenge your faith. You've only been around for a short time and participated in a few discussions. Have you checked out any articles in the library? I don't think it's the intention of any non-Christians on these boards to "convert" you to non-religious beliefs.

MrDarwin

By your own acknowledgment you've already gotten lots of questions. Why not pick one or two that appeal to you, and address them? Perhaps it's not your intent, but it sure looks like you're avoiding them.

Jamie_L

Hmm. Getting off track here. I may be part to blame for that for throwing in the whole "human evils" thing into an unsuspecting "natural evils" thread.

My intent was to respond to the notion that natural evils were okay because everyone gets something good out of life. My point is that, due to the combination of natural and human evils, it's quite likely that some people get nothing but pain and suffering out of life. Since I can't fathom not existing, it's hard for me to say definitively that these people would have been better off not existing. But I think at least it's equally ambiguous as to whether they should consider themselves "blessed" for having lived at all.

And, if they get consolation by an eternal afterlife, it again begs the question: WHY ALL THIS SUFFERING? Why not go straight to the eternal bliss? Anything we might learn from our suffering is knowledge God could just give us - if he's really all powerful.

Imagine you have a child that you love. You want to teach him not to touch hot things. Do you a) point out hot things and tell the child "don't touch" - maybe allowing him to feel the heat at a distance so he knows how to recognize it? Or do you b) hold his hand in boiling water while he screams and then tell him that his suffering will now prepare him for a glorious life of avoiding future burns?

Think about it.

Jamie

RJS

I have responded to many many questions. I am not intentionally avoiding anything. I just felt it was easier for one of you to pose a real zinger of a question and I promise to answer it. Of course, I have a feeling it will degrade to a point where someone tells me to "prove it" and I will say I can't prove it - so I have Faith and you dont, in which case you will think I failed, and I will think you failed. Your goal is to shake my young Faith.

Hans

RJS

What do you believe the complete absence of your god is like, and why?