case

I see your point. I no more believe in ghosts than I do invisible pink unicorns. But how do we know that the law of gravitation exists? Before Newton, no one had ever thought of it. Galilio came close, but it wasn't until Newton that it was formulated. I think the point of the conversation is an exercise in epistimology: how do we know what we know?

If ghosts, as I believe, exist only in human minds, then what makes them different that the law of gravitation? I am assuming that ghosts do just that, and aren't physical entities. They don't exist until people think them up, and laws of nature don't either.

YHWH666

>>If ghosts, as I believe, exist only in human minds, then what makes them different that the law of gravitation? I am assuming that ghosts do just that, and aren't physical entities. They don't exist until people think them up, and laws of nature don't either.


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A diffrence that makes no difrence is no diffrence!
whether or not physical laws exist independantly of your mind doesn't matter.
If the universe doesn't exist indepenandly of your thoughts and sensations there is no reason to suspect it wouldn't behave the same as a universe that does.
it really doesn make a diffrence!

there's be no way to tell the diffrence bettween a classical external universe and a solipistic (only existing in your mind) universe.

this idea is summed up in the thought experiment of Schroedinger's Cat:
In an airtight room with one shuttered window is placed a radiation meter. In the meter's detector is a small quantity of radium - just enough that the probability of one or more atoms decaying in a ten-minute period is 50 percent, and the probability of no atoms decaying in that period is 50 percent. The meter is connected to a phial of cyanide gas; if a decaying atom is registered, the phial will open. Also in the room is a cat. Turn on the radiation meter by remote control, wait ten minutes, and turn it off. What is the status of the cat?

according to qauntum physics low level events such as the decay of individual atoms are inherently unpredictable. some physists go as far as to say the such events don't actually occur until they are observed-- solipisim. such uncertainty about individual atoms doesn't disturb us but here uncertainty has been magnified into the fate of a living being. is the cat alive or dead?

the question realy is is who count's as an observer? you? a fellow scientist? the cat it's self?

according to a sloipistic worldview, you are the only observer that counts. if another person looks into the shutters and looks, you are then as uncertain of the others knowledge as of the cat's life itself.

solipisim is a usless concept. there is no reason to suspect that it would behave any diffrently than a regular universe. the laws of probability still work. and newton's laws are just as probable if apllied to solipistic sensations as they are as applied to an external event.

It cannot be resolved
the universe, whether real or relative, contains (gives the sensations of?) many physicists (figments?) who have found evidence supporting these laws.
edited for mistake

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: YHWH666 ]</p>

Francois Tremblay

Sigh. I've already explained twice. They are simply not the same class of existants at all. How can you not understand this ?

YHWH666

yes yes we all know that a theory (or law of gravity)is merely a possible discription of a natural event and not a natural event in itself.

but i think that what he was refering to was GRAVITY not THE LAW OF gravity.

case

What we have here is a failure to properly define the terms. At least didn't. To be honest, I find the arguement very weak myself, but I found it interesting. Bloody difficult playing Devil's advocate for something you don't agree with, isn't it?

Infinity Lover

Oh dear! Okay here goes... if you need guidance, read my address to mankind elsewhere on the board. Memorize the answers, stick to those, and you'll be as good as it gets! No more trying, you'll be doing it full blast!!

Secondly you can be sure you can't be sure of everything! And God sure as hell doen't have all the answers, because te Bible has a limited nunber of pages, in case you never noticed!

There's NO divine jar of ultimate truth! The truth is what you're telling when you're being honest, something God is lousy at!!

ALWAYS distinguish what you're sure and unsure about and NEVER mix the two up!
Why on earth should you have to be ashamed of not knowing everything! NOBODY knows everything!

YOU HAVE AN INTERNET CONNECTION FOR OUR SAKES!

You get more straight answers from <a href="http://www.askjeeves.com" target="_blank">www.askjeeves.com</a> than from God, I assure you! And a multimedia encyclopedia can be very helpfull to!

Forget about that millenia old rubbish, embrace the information age, you're already tapped into it. And stop fooling yourself! You're only a kiwi by nickname, not by braincapacity!