anime

A mistranslation from Hebrew to English is unlikely, seeing that the "New Testament" was written in Greek / Aramaic.

"Knows all things" is qualified by the subject, which is "Proof of our state before God". God knows our "state".

But a persons state changes.

God created Satan (the King of Tyre) perfect in wisdom and beauty, but his wisdom became corrupted and was lifted up by his pride (Ezekiel 28).

In Ezekiel 28:18-19, God judged him in accordance with his new state.

Bluefire211

Hello all! I am a newcomer to the forums, but I may have something good to say. Please correct me if I am way off base.


So, is it possible that the translation from Greek/Aramaic to English was wrong?

Definition of "all", from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition: all (adj): 1a: the whole amount or quantity of. b: as much as possible. 2: every member or individual component of. 3: the whole number or some of. 4: every

So as you can see, "all" isn't conditional, rather it seems to be universal. As I stated way above, please correct me if I am wrong.

A person's state, including every instance of it every possibly changing, is included in knowing all things.

I reason that to be all knowing one would have to know all things, which includes who will and won't be saved.

from the same dictionary as above:
perfect (adj): 1a: being entirely without fault or defect. b: satisfying all requirments. c: corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept. d: faithfully reproducing the original.

If a being with perfect wisdom can have his wisdom corrupted, then the ideal standard of wisdom (perfection) can also become corrupted. However, this can only be the case when you accept that perfection does not really mean perfection. I usually take perfection to be an ideal theoretical standard that is flawless in every way, thus that which is perfect could not become corrupted. I believe this is in accordance with the above definition. Thus, in the example I stated above, your "perfect wisdom" is not really perfect, as there is actually a higher standard yet to be attained.

You may refute these conjectures by redefining "perfect" and "all" if you like, and please inform the rest of the english speaking world that these concepts and words have changed.

Over and out, (and pleased to have joined IIDB I might add)
Bluefire211

anime

There are examples of mistranslation or misinterpretation from the Greek / Aramaic into English.

"All" by its self is unconditional. But can be qualified by a clause. "I know all about spinning lettuce" sets a condition on the "all" that one knows about.

"All" can also be qualified complimentary statements.

God knows "all" about a persons state (1 John 3:19-22), but desires that that state should be (or change) towards Him (1 Timothy 2:3-4. 2 Peter 9:9).

Using defintion "b" from your Webster's, Satan did indeed satisfy all requirements. But just like others with free will, he changed.

See also The Serpent of Genesis 3.

Bluefire211

So, quite logically, we can now conclude that God is not all-knowing, unless there are conditions for all-knowing? Are there several different types of all-knowing?

Someone please explain to me where in any of these verses it says anything about a person's state. I've read them and cannot find this reference. Also, 2 Peter 9:9 does not seem to exist. (I am using the New International Version). There is not a 1 Peter 9:9 either.

What were these requirements? Since Satan did satisfy all the requirements, it was also required for his wisdom to become corrupt. Therefore, since God made all things (is "all" conditional in this sense too?), God made Satan too, which means that God also made Satan so that his wisdom would eventually become corrupt. Thus, it could not have been Satan's choice, because if it had been and Satan did not choose to become corrupt then Satan would not have satisfied the requirement of becoming corrupt and thus would not have been perfect.

Over and out,
Bluefire211

Ion

"...knows all things.", written like this, is unconditional in English, anime.

"...knows all things." includes tomorrow.

Ask around.

"...knows all things except what will happen tomorrow.", is not written in the Bible, anime.

anime

Bluefire211:

Our "state" is described in those verses as "our hearts" as being "before Him".

"Before Him" also sets the qualifier for "all things", for our hearts tomorrow will not be "before Him" until tomorrow.

Under these circumstances, no, God is not all knowing. Only the election has predestination.

Sorry for the mistype, the reference is 2 Peter 3:9. In those references, look for our "state" in the terminologies of "repentance" (towards Him) and "saved".

I'm out of time, but let me check out that words definition and usage in the Hebrew and get back to you.

Bluefire211

Anime,
your quote mistype is forgiven, I'll go back and look that up, and reread the others to find this "state". (I'm between classes right now, and have not the time, so I will address this tonight)

So, we are in agreement then? Assuming that God exists, then he is NOT all-knowing?

There are no circumstances to all-knowing. One either is, or is not. It seems that we have both just proven that God is not?

Glad I could clear that up!

Over and out,
Bluefire211

Bluefire211

Anime:
I have reviewed those three quotes and still fail to see any implied references to "state." Please point them out to me. I must admit that my ability to interpret the Bible is not very good, as I have little experience with the book, however I also feel that the necessity to interpret it disproves its infallibility.

Over and out,
Bluefire211

anime

I choose to use the word "state". You may use any word you wish.

In 1 Timothy 2:3-4, the "state" of the person is his salvation and knowledge of the truth. But you may use any word you wish.

In 2 Peter 9:9, the "state" is a persons standing in regards to repentance and the condition of his soul (whether or not they will perish). But you may use any word you wish.

These verses show that God is not all-knowing in the area of a person's future "state" (or which ever word you choose to use).

Bluefire211

I just need to see the words, come on, I know you can say it: God is not all-knowing, in an unconditional unqualified way. This is because a person's future is included in the set of all things, which God obviously does not know.

Over and out,
Bluefire211