Bill Snedden

Ummm...no. While it is true that matter is neither good nor evil, "actions" are not matter. You commit the fallacy of composition. Actions and their consequences can certainly be evaluated as good and/or evil. And if you believe that such an evaluation requires an "absolute, transcendent" standard, you're simply ignorant of centuries of philosphic thought on the subject.

I'm not sure where you got this idea. I am a naturalist in that I have no belief in the supernatural. I consider myself a materialist although I do not deny the existence of certain abstract entities like numbers and the laws of logic and physics. On the question of whether such entities have their grounding in matter or exist independently of matter, I am currently agnostic. In addition, I don't believe that the mind and brain are qualitatively equal (although I do see the mind as wholly dependent upon the brain for its existence). Perhaps that's where the confusion arose.

I'm not exactly sure of your meaning, but it sounds like you're simply saying that the fact that a lot of people think slavery is wrong doesn't make it wrong. Of course, that's true, however it has nothing necessarily to do with what I was saying. I'm saying that even people whose worldview includes the idea of a transcendent, absolute, morality will argue against slavery as evil while embracing a worldview that holds man's relationship to god as a slave to its owner. That's an inconsistency, at best.

How about you? Is slavery evil? Is the ownership of one sentient being by another permissible in your worldview?

So you say. It seems obvious to me (and many others) that "contingency" has nothing to do with morality, so that's really beside the point. Therefore, why cannot Man's "morality" likewise be a manifestation of his nature? Why is only god privileged to know the difference between good and evil?

Of course, this is really a rhetorical question. I've already heard your answer many times: "because he is." Unfortunately, it simply begs the question: why can't Man also be privileged to discern the difference between good and evil? My answer: he can. Why? He just can. As you see, that knife cuts both ways.

The ineluctable conclusion here is that your god isn't really "good", he's actually amoral. He doesn't bind himself by the laws he creates for us. Kind of a "do what I say, not what I do" mentality. Odd that the label we would normally apply to such activity would be "hypocritical", but I guess that's your god for you.

You do realize that your approach renders humans completely incapable of moral judgement? If "killing" isn't immoral in and of itself, then how do we differentiate between "righteous" and "unrighteous" killing? Perhaps Jeffrey Dahmer was merely obeying the will of god.

Come, come, theophilus...there's no need to dissemble. I find it difficult to accept that one who accepts the Bible as the true word of the ultimate foundation of knowledge would be ignorant of what the Bible has to say about god's whereabouts.

There are many places in the Bible where heaven's location is specified as "up". In the OT, the smoke of sacrifices and incense is said to "rise up to heaven". In the NT, the Holy Spirit is said to "descend" and Christ was supposed to have "ascended" into heaven. The wording makes it clear that the ancient Hebrews and Greeks believed heaven to be located physically above their heads.

Of course, nowadays most Christians interpret "up" to mean a "higher plane", rather than a physical location. However, that's an eisegetical rather than exegetical reading.

Whether god "submits himself" to our judgement is moot. The question is whether or not sufficient evidence exists. The sufficiency of such evidence cannot be judged from the point of view of the provider, but rather from those who are expected to evaluate it.

Let's try an experiment. I'm thinking of a number between negative and positive infinity. What is it? I contend that I've provided sufficient evidence for you to guess the number beyond all doubt. Would you agree?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Bill Snedden

Well, then, I suppose there's still hope for me. I must say, that he's certainly taking his sweet time being found...I've only been looking for thirty-odd years.

"Whoever seeks truth seeks God, whether he knows it or not." Edith Stein

I suppose (ala Tom Paine), if God exists, those who promote such views are slandering his good name...

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Hawkingfan

You seem to be fond of tap dancing. You are now contradicting yourself. If the reason we die is because of Adam's sin, we are sharing in his punishment. Which also brings up another problem--none of us asked to be born. Yet, we are all held responsible for something we have no control over.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Bill,
Then would you allow me one personal comment?



Most assuredly. I could not agree with you more.



Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Hawkingfan,
I think the Biblical point of view Hawk is that we ultimately die from our own sin.


I'm puzzled at your 'none of us asked to be born' comment. Would you prefer not to exist Hawk?


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Hawkingfan

Still not true. Re-read theo's statement about sin from Adam. Also, many babies die without committing a single sin. Mental patients who do not know right from wrong die as well.
No. It's that no one made a conscious decision to be born and "inherit" a sinful nature from Adam. It's something that god purposefully made happen (according to Christians), yet he condemns them for inheriting that sin right from the moment they're born.

Bill Snedden

And all along I thought that's essentially what we were all doing here!

Comment away...

Hmmm....I'm somewhat puzzled as the worldview I see as "slandering god" is the worldview you appear to espouse (god as "supernatural slavemaster", the sole judge of morality, etc). What am I missing?

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Bill,
If your search for God in anyway is representative of this statement...

...then it is abundantly clear why you have not found Him.


Another question for you: If you've already rejected God...why waste your time looking for Him?




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Bill Snedden

What's your point? That I'm biased against worshipping a neurotic, petty-minded, tyrannical slavemaster? To that I plead guilty, as all rational beings should as well.

This is the kind of slander I imagine the true god (should it exist) would find most egregious. Hope you like it hot...

You assume that god is as you imagine him. I submit to you that if there is a being upon whom all of existence depends and who created this world and everything in it, then you are about as close to knowing it as I am. The only difference between us is that you have apparently closed your mind and settled for the narrow, anthropomorphic god portrayed through the limited & biased knowledge of ancient nomadic tribesmen. I prefer to continue looking. If there's a being out there worthy of worship, I trust it will not remain hidden forever...

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Bill,
No. Only that you would call the Holy, omnipotent Creator of all (yourself included) a 'neurotic, petty-minded, tyrannical slavemaster'.

??



Excellent. If you are searching why don't you seek God?





Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas