Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emotional · 08-07-2003, 08:30 AM

In my pagan days, when I was getting tired of Wicca, and just before deciding on the Roman goddess Venus, I made a query for advice which pantheon to choose. A response I got was that the Celtic gods are very popular nowadays.

A few questions upon recalling the issue:

1. Is it true that the Celtic gods are very popular nowadays?

2. Why are the Celtic gods very popular nowadays? What's so attractive about Celtic lore?

3. How much can Neocelts (Celtic Reconstructionist pagans) build, as the surviving material about ancient Celtic religion is so small?

I'm not searching now (I'm a monotheist), I'm just curious.

triplew00t · 08-07-2003, 08:53 AM

I studied Celticism a little not long ago. I think its most liked because so little is known. That allows people to fill in the blanks without anyone saying "you cant believe that and be a Celt! They didnt believe that". Most of the Neocelts that I know are not reconstructionalist at all, and simply steal the label. Maybe there are some out there, but as far as I am concerned, there is not enough information on them left to create an accurate religion that covers all areas such as the Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Chinese, Shinto, Indian, etc. do. These other religions were all recorded at least to some extent, and for the most part in great deals (except the Norse and Egyptian) in written form, where as the Celts, while having a written language, considered that recording their language in written form (ironically) submitted it to the profane ambiguities of memory. Dont ask me why, seems backwards to me. I imagine it was the whole "multiple interpretations" issue, so they only learned their religion from other people, such as a successive line of Druidic preists. But, then again, this is speculation, as there is very little written to say one way or the other. But its my best guess.

Nero

andy_d · 08-08-2003, 01:45 AM

These days historians and archaeologists are very nervous about the term "celt" in general.

Having reevaluated the evidence, it seems that the idea that there was a single culture across Europe at the time is in fact incorrect. What we think of as "the celts" were in fact a number of largely unrelated cultures. It seems "the celts" are more a construction of 19th century romanticism than an actual people. As for the druids, we know almost nothing, and are left only with a bunch of ridiculous fabrications and speculation. The actual historical and archaeological record doesn't really tell us a damn thing about what the druids were about.

So basically saying "the celts did this" or "the celts believed that" is a bit of a dodgy endeavour.

emotional · 08-08-2003, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by andy_d
It seems "the celts" are more a construction of 19th century romanticism than an actual people.

Aha! That's the meat of my question. Why is Celtic culture so romanticised, as opposed to, say, Greek or Roman or Norse paganism? What's the attraction of the Celts, imagined or otherwise? Why are there so many Neocelts, Celtic Druids and Celtic "Warriors" on the 'Net nowadays? Has Xena anything to do with it? Or environmentalism (the "back to nature" craze)? Or is it part of the New Age passion for native, unadultered cultures?

Donnmathan · 08-08-2003, 06:24 AM

Perhaps what little is known of their true culture and mystic beliefs made it easy to attach the nature-based magic system most Neo's seem to like to them? If one looks at the magic and/or ritual most modern celtic-based pagans use, one can see the influence of a great many other religions and magical traditions - Roman, Egyptian, Greek (strongly), and some Hindu and Oriental. They follow the gods and religious calander (as much of it as is known) of the celts, but then cherry-picked from the others to suit their tastes.

Guess the bottom line is (to paraphrase triplew00t) it allowed them to make of their religion what they wished.

Sarpedon · 08-08-2003, 02:59 PM

I recall reading that the poem Eenie-meeny-miney-moe began as a druid chant that they used to select a sacrificial victim, to be taken to an island to be killed (the island was called Eane)

There is also the charming custom of the Wicker Man, where a large manikin is made from wood and wicker, human beings are shoved inside, and the whole is burned. There is a very good movie out by that title. (The Wicker Man)

emotional · 08-09-2003, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sarpedon
There is also the charming custom of the Wicker Man, where a large manikin is made from wood and wicker, human beings are shoved inside, and the whole is burned.

Human beings are burnt, and you call it charming? What then shall we say of the god of the Bible?

Quote:

There is a very good movie out by that title. (The Wicker Man)

I haven't seen the movie yet but I've read a lot about it.

Ancestral Ambivalence: A Pagan Retrospective on The Wicker Man

triplew00t · 08-09-2003, 01:33 PM

I can promise you that he calling the custom charming was the utmost in sarcasm.

Nero

emotional · 08-09-2003, 03:10 PM

My apologies, I misinterpreted.

lpetrich · 08-09-2003, 10:05 PM

On the subject of Druid human sacrifice, my favorite story about that is that they believed in it enough to be willing to sacrifice one of their own number.

When they were losing badly to the Romans, some Druids in England grew desperate and decided to offer one of their number to their deities. So they did a version of drawing straws; they baked a big sort-of cookie with one part of it burned, then cut up that cookie and put the parts into a bag. The one who drew the burnt part was the one who was sacrificed.

This is reconstructed from the body of someone found in Lindow Moss, England; someone who had been executed in three ways: clubbed, garroted, and bled to death. For more, see the book "The Life and Death of a Druid Prince".

Also, the Druids would memorize a large body of lore; they were opposed to writing it down, which is why most of it is now lost.

08-07-2003, 08:30 AM	#1
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	Cult of the Celt In my pagan days, when I was getting tired of Wicca, and just before deciding on the Roman goddess Venus, I made a query for advice which pantheon to choose. A response I got was that the Celtic gods are very popular nowadays. A few questions upon recalling the issue: 1. Is it true that the Celtic gods are very popular nowadays? 2. Why are the Celtic gods very popular nowadays? What's so attractive about Celtic lore? 3. How much can Neocelts (Celtic Reconstructionist pagans) build, as the surviving material about ancient Celtic religion is so small? I'm not searching now (I'm a monotheist), I'm just curious.

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08-07-2003, 08:53 AM	#2
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	I studied Celticism a little not long ago. I think its most liked because so little is known. That allows people to fill in the blanks without anyone saying "you cant believe that and be a Celt! They didnt believe that". Most of the Neocelts that I know are not reconstructionalist at all, and simply steal the label. Maybe there are some out there, but as far as I am concerned, there is not enough information on them left to create an accurate religion that covers all areas such as the Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Chinese, Shinto, Indian, etc. do. These other religions were all recorded at least to some extent, and for the most part in great deals (except the Norse and Egyptian) in written form, where as the Celts, while having a written language, considered that recording their language in written form (ironically) submitted it to the profane ambiguities of memory. Dont ask me why, seems backwards to me. I imagine it was the whole "multiple interpretations" issue, so they only learned their religion from other people, such as a successive line of Druidic preists. But, then again, this is speculation, as there is very little written to say one way or the other. But its my best guess. Nero

08-08-2003, 01:45 AM	#3
andy_d Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: umop apisbn Posts: 568	These days historians and archaeologists are very nervous about the term "celt" in general. Having reevaluated the evidence, it seems that the idea that there was a single culture across Europe at the time is in fact incorrect. What we think of as "the celts" were in fact a number of largely unrelated cultures. It seems "the celts" are more a construction of 19th century romanticism than an actual people. As for the druids, we know almost nothing, and are left only with a bunch of ridiculous fabrications and speculation. The actual historical and archaeological record doesn't really tell us a damn thing about what the druids were about. So basically saying "the celts did this" or "the celts believed that" is a bit of a dodgy endeavour.

08-08-2003, 06:24 AM	#5
Donnmathan Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 1,511	Perhaps what little is known of their true culture and mystic beliefs made it easy to attach the nature-based magic system most Neo's seem to like to them? If one looks at the magic and/or ritual most modern celtic-based pagans use, one can see the influence of a great many other religions and magical traditions - Roman, Egyptian, Greek (strongly), and some Hindu and Oriental. They follow the gods and religious calander (as much of it as is known) of the celts, but then cherry-picked from the others to suit their tastes. Guess the bottom line is (to paraphrase triplew00t) it allowed them to make of their religion what they wished.

08-08-2003, 02:59 PM	#6
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	I recall reading that the poem Eenie-meeny-miney-moe began as a druid chant that they used to select a sacrificial victim, to be taken to an island to be killed (the island was called Eane) There is also the charming custom of the Wicker Man, where a large manikin is made from wood and wicker, human beings are shoved inside, and the whole is burned. There is a very good movie out by that title. (The Wicker Man)

08-09-2003, 01:33 PM	#8
triplew00t Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 141	I can promise you that he calling the custom charming was the utmost in sarcasm. Nero

08-09-2003, 03:10 PM	#9
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	My apologies, I misinterpreted.

08-09-2003, 10:05 PM	#10
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	On the subject of Druid human sacrifice, my favorite story about that is that they believed in it enough to be willing to sacrifice one of their own number. When they were losing badly to the Romans, some Druids in England grew desperate and decided to offer one of their number to their deities. So they did a version of drawing straws; they baked a big sort-of cookie with one part of it burned, then cut up that cookie and put the parts into a bag. The one who drew the burnt part was the one who was sacrificed. This is reconstructed from the body of someone found in Lindow Moss, England; someone who had been executed in three ways: clubbed, garroted, and bled to death. For more, see the book "The Life and Death of a Druid Prince". Also, the Druids would memorize a large body of lore; they were opposed to writing it down, which is why most of it is now lost.

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