Toto

That site belongs to Mark McFall, one of the more reasonable Christian apologists. Proving that Jesus actually existed is part of his mission, and it seems silly to say that there is more historic evidence for Jesus than any other (mythical) religious figure. What does that prove?

Vorkosigan

I understand Sojourner, and that's a good point. Already something like 40% of American Christians do not believe that Jesus was physically resurrected, and that includes 35% of evangelicals! See <a href="http://www.barna.org," target="_blank">www.barna.org,</a> the Xtian survey group, for more details.

I do not maintain that Jesus was a myth, but rather that the gospel stories of him are, just as the stories of Roland do not reflect the real Roland, or the stories of Robin Hood reflect some real thief. All are composites drawn from multiple sources.

Toto:

If the Slavonic Jesus stories are drawn from Xtian myth, then what about the tale of JtB? Steve Mason's sight says there's a new book out recently on the Slavonic Josephus, so it looks like I'll have to head up to Amazon next week and spend a couple hundred $$.


Vorkosigan

Anunnaki

This wouldn`t be that bad except for still perpetuating superstions. It would still be a huge step forward to move away from literal Christianity.

It would be interesting to see what would actually happen though since a lot of Christians who know about the earlier Pagan saviors contend that Jesus is the only REAL savior since he was a REAL person.

Toto

(JtB is a character in Christian myth, so its not surprizing.)

You mean this? <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9004114386/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Josephus' Jewish War and Its Slavonic Version: A Synoptic Comparison (Arbeiten Zur Geschichte Des Antiken Judentums Und Des Urchristentums, Bd. 46.)
</a>

At a List Price: $212.00, use the above link to give II a cut. (I think you must care a bit more about the Slavonic Josephus than I do....)

Peter Kirby

With some help from the web site made by Q. D. Jones, a list of Jesus Myth writers would include: C.F. Dupois, Higgins, Bruno Bauer, Robert Taylor, Massey, J.M. Robertson, W. Benjamin Smith, Arthur Drews, Rylands, Couchoud, A.B. Kuhn, Earl Doherty, G.A. Wells, Robert M. Price, Hermann Detering, Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy, Acharya S, Zain Winter, and Max Reiser.

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

Holy Baptism! Guess it's time to use the interlibrary loan.

Vorkosigan

Sojourner553

My observations have led me to believe that religious people "choose" to believe so they won't have to contemplate or face their own mortality. Whether Jesus was historical or spiritual -- they'll easily adjust as necessary to get the same end result! That is, they WANT to believe that they will never never die but will float around in some heavenly existance as a spirit. That is, it doesn't really matter to them that they don't know what that really means or WHY they believe it (or more important if it is really true).

To illustrate this point:
I remember when I was visiting the cathedral at Canterbury, England. In the basement was a history of how the area first converted to Christianity. One exhibit showed how the first generations of Christians were burried with BOTH Christian crosses AND pagan artifacts-- in the hopes that at least one of them would get them into heaven.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vorkosigan:
<strong>
I do not maintain that Jesus was a myth, but rather that the gospel stories of him are, just as the stories of Roland do not reflect the real Roland, or the stories of Robin Hood reflect some real thief. All are composites drawn from multiple sources. </strong>[quote]

You and I then are agreed on this -- I appear to have misunderstood you.

Sojourner

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Sojourner553

Then I applaud Mark McFall for a great site.
My point again was that there are both Jewish and atheist scholars who think Josephus' writings does present evidence there was a historical personnage named Jesus. So for anyone to argue this is really a black vs white issue is just setting them up for loosing probably the WHOLE debate.

Too bad Mark McFall does not look beyond his original premise in proving there was a historical Jesus -- to also note that this personnage was of a very different nature than the "Christ" myths that look almost identical to the ancient Greek mystery religions.

Sojourner

Vorkosigan

Then I applaud Mark McFall for a great site.
My point again was that there are both Jewish and atheist scholars who think Josephus' writings does present evidence there was a historical personnage named Jesus. So for anyone to argue this is really a black vs white issue is just setting them up for loosing probably the WHOLE debate.

You appear to be confirming my observation that the consensus on Josephus is political in origin, rather than scholarly. Under the current consensus, there are no losers.

Vorkosigan

Vinnie

I read (skimmed actually) that article on HJ (both parts) by Mcfall and it looked exactly like a paraphrase of chapter 5 of Josh Mcdowell's "New Evidence That Demands A Verdict." Compare the article and all the citations to the chapter (Jesus, A Man of History).

Vinnie