Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 03-10-2003, 08:54 PM

It's interesting how "the Paul guy" often becomes the one who gets blamed for things that people dislike in Xianity.

It is certainly true that there is some justification in that; Xianity may be called, with some justification, "Paulianity". But I am wondering why the finger often gets pointed to him instead of (say) the Gospel writers or the author of the Book of Revelation.

Sabine Grant · 03-11-2003, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Man
The problem you have is that those laws which are found in Genesis are regarded by Paul as the foundation of his theology. The entrance of sin into the world (the law of sin), death being consequent upon sin (the law of death), the fact that a wife remains bound to a husband as long as he lives (the law of marriage), and the submission of women to men (the law of God's creation order), are all based upon early Genesis.

And of the law he said: "(being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)" 1 Cor 9;21.

So I cannot see how any believer can use Christ to defeat Paul.

Hi Old Man....
What is the most important message to a self proclaimed christian in your opinion? I asked the same question in my previous post to you... I am interested in your reply. Thank you.

Sabine Grant · 03-11-2003, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
It's interesting how "the Paul guy" often becomes the one who gets blamed for things that people dislike in Xianity.

It is certainly true that there is some justification in that; Xianity may be called, with some justification, "Paulianity". But I am wondering why the finger often gets pointed to him instead of (say) the Gospel writers or the author of the Book of Revelation.

Hi Ipetrich... from what I can understand from the Epistles of Paul, they were composed to organize the first christian communities known as the " early church". He establishes rules pertaining to church discipline, behavior and hierarchy. I do not believe those were composed to add more to the message in the Gospels in terms of whom a self proclaim christian is to entrust for his sense of salvation.
I think the finger pointing has occured as some denominations are focusing on Paul's letters to various early churches to add more to the Gospels. Some folks do believe that their salvation can be compromised if they do not abide to the early church laws for example. I simply do not.

Old Man · 03-11-2003, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Farren
Actually not. Many theologians don;t believe in hell. The myth originates from
1) The place Christ purportedly went in his 3 days of absence from earth. This is a mistranslation of the Greek, which used the word for the (then) Greek concept of an "underworld", not a place of punishment
2) Revelations, which speaks of a pit where Satan and Co will be cast for a thousand years

The idea of an eternal place of punishment is a medieval invention that didn't exist prior to the end of the first millennia. I'm still astonished by the number of Christians that don't really "know" their own faith

Thats interesting. There are many posters on this board who considered that hell was "borrowed" from Zoroastrianism subsequent the the Median/Persian capture of Babylon. I believe there may be influences of zoroastrianism on the Apocryphal literatre.

However, the fact remains that the most rational explanation for the development of the Christian concept of hell comes from prophetical Judaism after the Babylonian captivity. Thus Enoch:

From http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch.htm

Quote:

Ch 22 5: And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.' 8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever.

Further consider Daniel:

Quote:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

With Enoch & Daniel, we are talking 2nd century BC (or earlier).

Old Man · 03-11-2003, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Hi Old Man....
What is the most important message to a self proclaimed christian in your opinion? I asked the same question in my previous post to you... I am interested in your reply. Thank you.

The most important message to a self-proclaimed Christian is to fully comprehend the meaning of the following verses:

Quote:

Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

AND

Quote:

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God

Ultimately, what you choose to lebel yourself is of little consequence to whatever else you say and do.

HelenM · 03-11-2003, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Old Man
The most important message to a self-proclaimed Christian is to fully comprehend the meaning of the following verses:

[...]

Ultimately, what you choose to lebel yourself is of little consequence to whatever else you say and do.

The most important verses for Christians to understand say nothing about Jesus?

Helen

MrDarwin · 03-11-2003, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christian
If God allowed sin to go unpunished, then He would not be "perfectly just." Christ's death is the only solution that enables God to be both merciful and just without contradiction.

Does this have anybody else scratching their head? Because it sounds like Christian is saying that before Jesus died, God was not able to be both merciful and just.

Radorth · 03-11-2003, 08:51 AM

It's not like it hasn't been explained consistently, patiently and sincerely. I can think of about a billion people who would never see God's mercy without the cross. The only alternatives presented have basically asserted that God should just forgive everybody without the sacrifice of Christ. You can call that merciful, but you can never call it just. Ironically this alternative contradicts many skeptics' assertions that Christians are getting too good of a deal as it is. They so often insist that "good" are being sent to hell while "bad" people get off. The problem of course is that God would rather deal with a repentant "bad" person than a self-righteous "good" one.

Rad

HelenM · 03-11-2003, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrDarwin
Does this have anybody else scratching their head? Because it sounds like Christian is saying that before Jesus died, God was not able to be both merciful and just.

Theologically speaking there isn't really a 'before' Jesus died, since God knows the end from the beginning, so He knew all along that that was how He was going to make provision for sin.

Helen

Marduk · 03-11-2003, 09:26 AM

�It's not like it hasn't been explained consistently, patiently and sincerely. I can think of about a billion people who would never see God's mercy without the cross. The only alternatives presented have basically asserted that God should just forgive everybody without the sacrifice of Christ�

I think this would cover the vast majority of people, most of whom spend their lives working, sleeping & trying to raise a family in peace.
What he wants to do with the 10% or so of politicians, criminals and businessmen that create most of the worlds grief is another matter.

03-10-2003, 08:54 PM	#41
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	The Paul guy -- the fall guy? It's interesting how "the Paul guy" often becomes the one who gets blamed for things that people dislike in Xianity. It is certainly true that there is some justification in that; Xianity may be called, with some justification, "Paulianity". But I am wondering why the finger often gets pointed to him instead of (say) the Gospel writers or the author of the Book of Revelation.

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03-11-2003, 08:51 AM	#48
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	It's not like it hasn't been explained consistently, patiently and sincerely. I can think of about a billion people who would never see God's mercy without the cross. The only alternatives presented have basically asserted that God should just forgive everybody without the sacrifice of Christ. You can call that merciful, but you can never call it just. Ironically this alternative contradicts many skeptics' assertions that Christians are getting too good of a deal as it is. They so often insist that "good" are being sent to hell while "bad" people get off. The problem of course is that God would rather deal with a repentant "bad" person than a self-righteous "good" one. Rad

03-11-2003, 09:26 AM	#50
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	�It's not like it hasn't been explained consistently, patiently and sincerely. I can think of about a billion people who would never see God's mercy without the cross. The only alternatives presented have basically asserted that God should just forgive everybody without the sacrifice of Christ� I think this would cover the vast majority of people, most of whom spend their lives working, sleeping & trying to raise a family in peace. What he wants to do with the 10% or so of politicians, criminals and businessmen that create most of the worlds grief is another matter.

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