Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Layman · 08-29-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Where did I say anything like this?

Just above, where you said that Gibson rewrote the script to do what Frederickson and the others wanted him to do. Then you said he could have saved a lot of time by just meeting with them in the first place.

Of course this just further shows that you know not what you are talking about. Fred and Co. were demanding a lot more than some changes to the Barnabas scene.

Toto · 08-29-2003, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
Just above, where you said that Gibson rewrote the script to do what Frederickson and the others wanted him to do. Then you said he could have saved a lot of time by just meeting with them in the first place.

Of course this just further shows that you know not what you are talking about. Fred and Co. were demanding a lot more than some changes to the Barnabas scene.

I said it was an attempt to do what they wanted - which was to limit the possibility of someone reading anti-Semitism into the story.

Of course, what you demand and what you expect to get are different.

And to keep up on events, I am not sure what to make of this - a group of Jewish politicians and community leaders picketing Fox:

Jewish leaders condemn film

Quote:

NEW YORK � A group of Jewish leaders yesterday condemned Mel Gibson's yet-to-be-released movie, "The Passion," and sought to hinder its distribution, saying its depiction of Jesus' final 12 hours will endanger Jews around the world.

"This film can potentially lead to violence directed against the Jewish community," said Assemblyman Dov Hikind, an Orthodox Jew and Democrat from Brooklyn.

Peter Kirby · 08-29-2003, 04:36 PM

I haven't been following this thread, but unless Mel is adding anti-semitic material over and above what is found in the Bible, I wouldn't put him in censure any more I would those who distribute copies of the Bible. Or is the point of concern the fact that people don't read the Bible but will watch a movie?

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto · 08-29-2003, 04:45 PM

Part of the original concern was that Mel was using some material that did have anti-Semitic material above and beyond what was in the Bible. From the report cited in the OP:

Quote:

A self-described, unofficial Italian website on "'The Passion' by Mel Gibson" at http://www.sassiweb.it/thepassion/ states that the film is "based upon the diaries of St. [sic] Anne Catherine Emmerich (1774-1824) as collected in the book, 'The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.'" We have no way of knowing whether this statement is accurate either today or when the film is released, however this reference does raise the question about extra biblical sources used in constructing passion play scripts. The book mentioned on this website contains numerous episodes not attested in the New Testament, which if included in any dramatic presentation of the death of Jesus today would directly violate Catholic teaching.

The Emmerich work contains such extra-biblical elements as:

Jesus' cross being constructed at the orders of the high priest in the courtyard of the Temple.
Servants of the high priest bribing fellow Jews to demand Jesus' death and even paying some of his crucifiers.
Violence far beyond what the gospels present during Jesus' hearing before Caiaphas and Annas.
Pontius Pilate criticizing the high priests for physically abusing Jesus and suggesting that they are thirsting for both his body and blood (cf. John 6:53).
Scenes of the brutalizing of Jesus not present in the gospels, such as Jewish figures dragging him around with a bag over his head so that it violently impacts against stone.
Pilate stating that he fears the high priest is planning a revolt against Rome.

Numerous other scenes not present in the New Testament could be cited from the Emmerich book, but those noted here all have the effect of increasing the guilt of Jewish characters for Jesus' sufferings. It would not be an exegetical theory to criticize any dramatic presentation of the death of Jesus that incorporated such non-biblical features.

The concern was also that the graphic depiction of evil Jews and a horribly suffering Christ would be a more powerful message than the Bible, which nobody reads anyway.

Paula Fredriksen was concerned about the effect that the movie would have when it hit, say Poland or the Ukraine, which have histories of anti-Semitic violence

Layman · 08-29-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
.... which nobody reads anyway.

Kinda funny statement for a cite devoted to the discussion of the text and history of the Bible.

More "mild" hyperbole?

Toto · 08-29-2003, 05:24 PM

Jeez.

Obviously I meant that the sort of thug who would join in mob violence against the local Jewish synagogue isn't likely to have read the Bible. I assume you won't object to that?

leonarde · 08-29-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

The book mentioned on this website contains numerous episodes not attested in the New Testament, which if included in any dramatic presentation of the death of Jesus today would directly violate Catholic teaching.

But there is no "Catholic teaching" on how to present dramatically the arrest, interrogation, flogging, and execution of Jesus: that's the job of the producer and/or director to decide. This is not a product of VATICAN FILMS, it is the product of a man who is both Catholic and someone in the motion picture business. Apparently some others involved in the project (like the lead actor) were drawn to it because of the nature of the material. There are many lacunae in the Gospel accounts of those last 12 hours of Jesus' life so having an episode "not attested in the New Testament" might not be such a bad thing after all.

Cheers!

Vorkosigan · 08-29-2003, 05:59 PM

[B]From CJD:I don't know what your upbringing is, but in my experience, very few xtians are free from antisemitism. And you ain't one of them.[/quote]

RD, CJD is not an anti-semite. Without a much higher level of evidence, that kind of accusation is unconscionable. Christianity certainly does have a history of anti-Semitism, but that does not mean all Christians are anti-Semites. I hope you will see your way clear to an apology for this remark and what followed oit

Vorkosigan

Layman · 08-29-2003, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Jeez.

Obviously I meant that the sort of thug who would join in mob violence against the local Jewish synagogue isn't likely to have read the Bible. I assume you won't object to that?

Well, I hope you understand the difficulty. I am limited by what you actually say ("nobody"), and do not have any other access to what you now claim to mean ("everyone who commits violence against the local Jewish synagogue").

Toto · 08-29-2003, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Layman
Well, I hope you understand the difficulty. . .

No, I don't. Have you no capacity to understand irony? jokes? Can you not separate casual banter from legal pleadings?

I guess the joke "nobody goes there any more, it's too crowded" would pass over your head.

Maybe you're working too hard.

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08-29-2003, 04:36 PM	#83
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	I haven't been following this thread, but unless Mel is adding anti-semitic material over and above what is found in the Bible, I wouldn't put him in censure any more I would those who distribute copies of the Bible. Or is the point of concern the fact that people don't read the Bible but will watch a movie? best, Peter Kirby

08-29-2003, 05:24 PM	#86
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Jeez. Obviously I meant that the sort of thug who would join in mob violence against the local Jewish synagogue isn't likely to have read the Bible. I assume you won't object to that?

08-29-2003, 05:59 PM	#88
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	[B]From CJD:I don't know what your upbringing is, but in my experience, very few xtians are free from antisemitism. And you ain't one of them.[/quote] RD, CJD is not an anti-semite. Without a much higher level of evidence, that kind of accusation is unconscionable. Christianity certainly does have a history of anti-Semitism, but that does not mean all Christians are anti-Semites. I hope you will see your way clear to an apology for this remark and what followed oit Vorkosigan

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