Freethought & Rationalism Archive

kinetekade · 03-09-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Mind telling us which forum?

Of course not - www.abcbodybuilding.com Creation/Science related threads come up about 2-3 times a week. I usually keep pretty quiet (I still have a lot to learn, but who doesn't?!

), but on occasion, I feel somewhat obligated to speak my mind. Wouldn't a post like this stir a response from you guys? -

Quote:

Hitler also used the Religion of Evolution to back his reason for mass murdering the Jews. So people can always blame their reasons on anything. Afterall, evolutions bible, I mean...Darwins book was origionally entitled

The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life ( Darwin was a major racist, it is incredible the disgusting things he preached, Hitler just regurgitated Darwins philosophy )

Hitler and many others used this unscientific religion for their own purposes. When in reality, they just used a religion to blame their sins on. So, the question is where do we stop? I think we need to look at ourselves for the problems in the world, instead doing something wrong and saying a certain ideology made me do it.

Thanks a lot for helping me out! Strange... I visited those sites and I have a few of them already bookmarked. I'll have to read more carefully next time, thanks again

tgamble · 03-09-2003, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kinetekade
Hitler also used the Religion of Evolution to back his reason for mass murdering the Jews. So people can always blame their reasons on anything. Afterall, evolutions bible, I mean...Darwins book was origionally entitled

The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life ( Darwin was a major racist, it is incredible the disgusting things he preached, Hitler just regurgitated Darwins philosophy )

Hitler and many others used this unscientific religion for their own purposes. When in reality, they just used a religion to blame their sins on. So, the question is where do we stop? I think we need to look at ourselves for the problems in the world, instead doing something wrong and saying a certain ideology made me do it.

:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Salmon of Doubt · 03-09-2003, 09:39 AM

Evolution a "religion"? Ha! :banghead:

kinetekade · 03-09-2003, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Evolution a "religion"? Ha!

Oh, it gets much worse... I'll post some more amusing quotes later

lpetrich · 03-09-2003, 09:57 AM

"And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord."

-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 46; he had also cited Jesus Christ's famous temple temper tantrum as a prototypical example of how wicked the Jews are.

By comparison, Darwin was remarkably nonracist for his time, and he had used the word "races" in a very generic sense in the title of his Origin of Species.

By comparison, some of the things the Bible states have been construed as racist, like God's cursing Ham and his offspring for Ham having been a Peeping Tom -- an argument that had often used to justify keeping black people subordinate to white people in the South.

tgamble · 03-09-2003, 10:08 AM

Anyone know what happened to Ken Harding's site? The "what would we expect to find if a global flood had occured". The links to it reach a deadend at yahoo!

Happy Wonderer · 03-09-2003, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobstrosity

There is no such thing as "information theory" in the realm of math or physics. It's an invention of computer science, which isn't technically a science.

Hey, watch it!

Actually I pretty much agree with you that except that I consider computer science to be a branch of mathematics. (This is distinct from the art of "programming" which is far more lucrative.)

Where creationists get mixed up is that they think that there is some sort of "law of conservation of information" equivalent to the laws of thermodynamics. There is nothing at all like that in information theory, and I have never seen a creationist support the hypothesis that there is. (They usually run away as soon as you start asking why there should be such a law.)

The closest reasoning that I can come up with is that since information depends upon energy, and energy is conserved, therefore information is conserved. This is so patently false that I have probably constructed a straw man. A Turing machine stuck in an infinite loop really does run forever.

There is something called "signal theory" but since by definition a signal can't gain information and be the same signal (although you can gain information about the signal) I don't think that it applies.

HW

Dr.GH · 03-09-2003, 11:25 AM

Intellegent Design Creationist Willian Dembski claims to have "invented" a Law of Conservation of Information. It is a mishmash of misunderstanding the 2nd LoTD and the notion behind Shanon entropy. Since I doubt that Dembski really misunderstands these things, I conclude that he is lying.

Re the original post.

Your best response is to select just one "question" to answer at a time. Make your debate opponent pick the topic. Then we can help blast the creato stupidity to atoms.

Daggah · 03-09-2003, 11:35 AM

kinetekade, you might want to point out that it was, in fact, Martin Luther, the famous German protestant reformer, who inspired a great deal of the anti-semitism in the Nazi party that unfortunately led to the Holocaust.

Dr.GH · 03-09-2003, 11:51 AM

An abstract that provides a glimse of the proper application of Shannon was just pointed out to me by an associate:

Quote:

Entropy and information in flagellar axoneme cybernetics: A radial spokes integrative function.

Cibert C.

Groupe de Morphometrie et de Modelisation Cellulaire, Departement de Biologie du Developpement, Institut Jacques Monod, CNRS, Universites Paris 6 and Paris 7, Paris, France.

Radial spokes and the consequences of their relationships with the central apparatus seem to play a very important role in the regulation of axonemal activity. We modeled their behavior and observed that it appears to differ in the cilium and the flagellum with respect to the development of bending as a function of time. Specifically, our calculation raises the question of the real function of the radial spokes in the regulation of the axoneme, because a given curvature of the flagellar axoneme may correspond to two opposite of their tilts. The stable nil/low amplitude shear points that we had characterized along the flagellum allowed us to describe their axoneme as a series of modules [Cibert, 2002: Cell Motil. Cytoskeleton 51:89-111]. We observed that a nil/low shearing point moves along each module during beating when a new bend is created at the base of the flagellum [Cibert, 2001: Cell Motil. Cytoskeleton 49:161-175]. We propose that the structural gradients of isoforms of tubulin could be basic verniers that act as structural references for the axonemal machinery during the beating. This allowed us to interpret the axonemal organization as a segmented structure, that could be analyzed according to the complexion(1) theory and Shannon's information theory, which associate entropy and probability in the creation of information. The important consequence of this interpretation is that regulation of the axonemal machinery appears to be due to the upstream and downstream cross-talk between the axonemal segments that do not involve any dedicated integrative structure but depend on the energy level of the entire length of each module. Cell Motil. Cytoskeleton 54:296-316, 2003. Copyright 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

(1)Complexion was defined by Boltzman in 1877 and used by Planck in 1900 to calculate the energy distribution of a normal spectrum [Morowitz, 1970].

PMID: 12601692 [PubMed - in process]

Notice that this abstract also has direct bearing on Behe's claim for the "irreducible complexity" of the bacterial flagella which is a core "proof" of Divine Creation cited by Dembski and the rest of the IDCs.

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03-09-2003, 09:39 AM	#13
Salmon of Doubt Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: UK Posts: 150	Evolution a "religion"? Ha! :banghead:

03-09-2003, 09:57 AM	#15
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	"And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord." -- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 46; he had also cited Jesus Christ's famous temple temper tantrum as a prototypical example of how wicked the Jews are. By comparison, Darwin was remarkably nonracist for his time, and he had used the word "races" in a very generic sense in the title of his Origin of Species. By comparison, some of the things the Bible states have been construed as racist, like God's cursing Ham and his offspring for Ham having been a Peeping Tom -- an argument that had often used to justify keeping black people subordinate to white people in the South.

03-09-2003, 10:08 AM	#16
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	Anyone know what happened to Ken Harding's site? The "what would we expect to find if a global flood had occured". The links to it reach a deadend at yahoo!

03-09-2003, 11:25 AM	#18
Dr.GH Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Dana Point, Ca, USA Posts: 2,115	Intellegent Design Creationist Willian Dembski claims to have "invented" a Law of Conservation of Information. It is a mishmash of misunderstanding the 2nd LoTD and the notion behind Shanon entropy. Since I doubt that Dembski really misunderstands these things, I conclude that he is lying. Re the original post. Your best response is to select just one "question" to answer at a time. Make your debate opponent pick the topic. Then we can help blast the creato stupidity to atoms.

03-09-2003, 11:35 AM	#19
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	kinetekade, you might want to point out that it was, in fact, Martin Luther, the famous German protestant reformer, who inspired a great deal of the anti-semitism in the Nazi party that unfortunately led to the Holocaust.

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