Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Normal · 06-12-2003, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418
And that's exactly what I'm disagreeing with. I don't think it makes sense to attribute persistent delusions ("I'm Napoelan"), for example, or dramatic alterations in apparently volitional behaviors to a malfunction in the machinery of the 'plane.' I think it makes much more sense to say that the pilot herself has been impaired by the injury. Unless of course the personality and behavior are characteristics of the plane rather than the pilot (ok, I think Ive stretched the analogy a bit too far), which is indeed a possible option.

Patrick

Agreed, the plane/pilot analogy is getting confusing here, but I believe that delusions such as "I'm Napolean" are failings of the brain to correctly perceive reality. Dramatic changes in behavior also could be due to a chemical imbalance very much contained in the brain.

Jesse · 06-12-2003, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
How does this challenge free will at all? You're just tracing back the functions of the brain that enact a "choice". Not proving if those choices exist.

Am I missing something?

The main issue here is that many subjects reported the slide changed before they were conscious of making a choice. Most believers in free will would say the willing soul makes its choice at the same moment we consciously experience making the choice, no?

Normal · 06-12-2003, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
The main issue here is that many subjects reported the slide changed before they were conscious of making a choice. Most believers in free will would say the willing soul makes its choice at the same moment we consciously experience making the choice, no?

You're merely tracing the line back further then reflex.

Jesse · 06-12-2003, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
You're merely tracing the line back further then reflex.

I don't understand your answer. The "line" of what? Where does reflex come into it? Are you denying that the soul makes the choice at the same moment we consciously experience making a choice?

ps418 · 06-12-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
Agreed, the plane/pilot analogy is getting confusing here, but I believe that delusions such as "I'm Napolean" are failings of the brain to correctly perceive reality.

No, delusional misindentification disorders are not perceptual deficits at all. They are disorders of interpretation. For instance, people who are suffering from Capgras Delusion will admit that the "imposter" looks and acts just like the real McCoy.

Patrick

Normal · 06-12-2003, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
I don't understand your answer. The "line" of what? Where does reflex come into it? Are you denying that the soul makes the choice at the same moment we consciously experience making a choice?

The brain has to send a signal to the hand, no?

Jesse · 06-12-2003, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
The brain has to send a signal to the hand, no?

Sure, but I don't see how this affects the fundamental problem this experiment poses for soul-believers. I would appreciate an answer to my question about whether the soul makes its decision at the same instant we consciously experience making the decision.

Normal · 06-12-2003, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418
No, delusional misindentification disorders are not perceptual deficits at all. They are disorders of interpretation. For instance, people who are suffering from Capgras Delusion will admit that the "imposter" looks and acts just like the real McCoy.

Patrick

And a failure to interpret correctly can also be attributed to the brain. Anything that can be fixed with medicine is obviously contained within the brain.

Normal · 06-12-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
Sure, but I don't see how this affects the fundamental problem this experiment poses for soul-believers. I would appreciate an answer to my question about whether the soul makes its decision at the same instant we consciously experience making the decision.

That's a question based on reflex, which given the information I have now about neurology, I cannot answer.

Jesse · 06-12-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Normal
That's a question based on reflex, which given the information I have now about neurology, I cannot answer.

How can a question about the soul have anything to do with neurology or reflex?

Look, if you deny that the choice of the soul is made at the same moment we experience making a choice, that would suggest that our experience of making a choice at a particular time is a bit of an illusion, that we are actually just parroting a decision which was already made earlier. But the whole basis for believing in a free-willed soul in the first place is our experience of making choices--thus this would be a self-undermining position for a soul-believer to take.

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