GeoTheo

Biff,
I didn't open with a tirade. What I said about the Catholic Church is well documanted. Are you familiar with the "Holy Roman Empire"? The first Baptists in the colonies fled to Rhode Island to avoid being forced to pay thithes to the Anglican Church. They were often drown in Europe and Britian because of their religious beliefs. I could dig some stuff up. But I would like to say that I also find your manner overly abrasive and not cunducive to intelligent discussion.
I get hot in the collar too somtimes, though, so I forgive you. But If you want to continue the discussion I would like to see some documentation for your Claim that Bptists haven't historically been in favor of Freedom of religion in this country. I can provide some to the contrary.

GeoTheo

Here's on for starters:
http://w3.trib.com/FACT/1st.jeffers.2.html

GeoTheo

Regarding Baptists and seperation of Church and State:
http://w3.trib.com/FACT/1st.jeffers.2.html

"American Baptist Policy Statement on a Statement by American Baptists Concerning Freedom

For Baptists the word 'freedom' is a watermark. It is impressed into our doctrine, our polity, our practice. It cannot be eradicated. Baptists, mindful of Roger Williams' pattern, have endeavored in all kinds of political and religious climate to maintain a continuing witness to the principle of liberty and conscience. Baptists have always asserted that religion and government are foundations of the social order, that they are indispensable to each other, that they influence as well as complement each other. It is a function of democratic government to safeguard the soil in which religion may grow and flourish freely. It is a function of religion to bring truth, strength of character and conscience to society, so that it may be fit to govern itself. For these reasons state and church must remain separate, each free under God to perform its special function"
Here's the link:
http://www.abc-usa.org/resources/resol/chsep.htm
Here's another doctrinal statement:

"Separation of church and state
In a very real sense, a Christian is a pilgrim, a stranger in a strange land. Baptists believe that neither the church or the state, as institutions, should control the other. This "separation" says that civil government has no right to use force in matters of the religious beliefs of its citizens (unless genuine injury results from the exercise of such beliefs). No government has the right to meddle in the internal affairs of the church or determine the nature of the church's message. Likewise, civil power may not be used as a means to dictate to the nation as a whole any purely religious policy. It is not intended to eliminate religion from national life nor to silence the church's voice in matters of civil concern. We aim for responsible involvement, not absorption, in the affairs of our earthly nations. The forms of involvement may be by voting, pronouncements, affirmations, social action, civil disobedience, etc.. At all times, however, we maintain our primary allegiance to the Kingdom of God."

Some more links:
http://www.mts.net/~lehotsk1/nl-bapt.htm
http://www.truth4u.org/doc040199.html

I can't believe you are not aware that for most of it's history the RCC had the power of the State behind it, but I can provide documantation for that if you want also.

Biff the unclean

But I would like to say that I also find your manner overly abrasive and not cunducive to intelligent discussion.

What's the most abrasive part? Pointing out your anti-Catholic bigotry, or your twisting of history so as not to give credit to the non-Christians where credit is due, or trying to get you to address the OP? How can we have an intelligent discussion if you won't address the issue that the discussion is about?

GeoTheo

Biff,
Are you a big enough man to admit it when you are wrong?
I thought Baptists opposed Seperation of Church and State?
I guess they enjoyed paying tithes to the Congregationalist Church as well as their own. And what is your opinion of the Roman Cathilic church as regards to it's past history in the seperation of Church and State?

Starboy

Dang GeoTheo, your links make it all the more difficult to understand why 'under god' and 'In god we trust' as well as the ten commandments, prayer in the congress and in our courts is still there. Why the President made such a fuss over the California Supreme Court ruling on the unconstitutionality of 'under god' in the pledge. Wait a second. I get it now. This is just one more example of Christians preaching one thing and doing something completely different. Yup, I see it now, it’s the (lack of the) power of god.

Starboy

fatherphil

generally no.

but i have been personally attacked it would seem because i had a different opinion. though i would not chalk that up to atheism per se.

schu

Why are some believers angered by disbelief? Bertrand Russell offered this explanation:

"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably, some part of him is aware that they are myths, and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed."

GeoTheo

Basically I think you are being a cry baby. I mean that in the nicest way possible. If it will make you feel better perhaps you could take a nail and scratch "In God We Trust" off of a penny.
I mean, seriously, No body except atheists with thin skin get bent out of shape by "ceremonial deism." I don't know one person in High School that didn't mumble the pledge incoherently in School. No one cares. Your rights are not being infringed upon. No one is forcing you to pray or adopt a religious belief.

Starboy

If it is a trivial issue then why won't Christians honor their own commitment to the constitution and get the stuff off our public institutions. As trivial as you seem to think it is, our baptist president thought it was important enough to make several very public statements on the subject and to appeal to the court to overturn the ruling. I think it is important to remove such sentiments because they do send a mixed message, and it does encourage those who would destroy the separation. I say keep it clean and simple. Pass no laws respecting the establishment of religion. Just like it says in the constitution.

Starboy