Secular Pinoy

Messianic Jews are nothing more than Christians that pretend to be Jews in order to infiltrate the synagogues and convert the people to Jesus. Pretty pathetic bunch. Read this page (requires PDF Reader) for more info in this disreputable christian practice.

There are more info in the Messiah Truth website.

Magus55

You guys really have no clue what it means to be a Messianic Jew. But I don't really care - Messianic Jews are more complete than orthodox Jews, because they weren't blinded to the truth, and failed to realize that their own Messiah passed them by. I don't need to gain acceptence from you. I was born Jewish, I'm Jewish by bloodline, and law, and Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. Don't agree with it, I don't really care.

Tishrei4

Opera Nut:

"In essence, so-called "Messianic Jewish" groups claim that they represent a "completed form of Judaism" or "completed form of Jewishness" or "Biblical Judaism.""

"Traditional Christianity pictures Judaism as an incomplete religion because it does not include belief in Jesus. "

Magus55:

"Messianic Jews are more complete than orthodox Jews, because they weren't blinded to the truth, and failed to realize that their own Messiah passed them by."

Tishrei:
Merely asserting that Jesus is the Messiah does not make it so. You have provided no proof. Maybe you should take some time and read about the Sabbatians and the current Lubavitcher debacle.... there are some very intereseting parallels between these movements and the begining of xtianity.

And please do not accuse me of not understanding or knowing.... I was once involved in the Messianic Movement.

Secular Pinoy

Wrong Magus, you're a Christian, not a Jew in any religious sense. Messianic Judaism is Christianity. Read my two links and see how True? Jews view the pathetic posturing of your sect.

Rational BAC

I probably should not get into this one, because I know very little about the subject. -----

But to a layman in these matters------I do not see what the great difficulty seems to be with Magus' position on this.

1st century Christianity was a cult minority of Judaism and accepted as such at that time, as I understand it.

If Magus wants to go back to 1st century Judaic beliefs. ------fine with me. What real problem do all the rest of you have with this?

I have known many Christians fascinated by 1st century Christianity and try to emulate it. Does that make them unchristian in any way?

And as far as the writings of Paul--------I consider myself to be Christian --although a cherry picking one-(-and there was an earlier thread debating this subject--and pretty much everyone decided that I was in actuality a Christian-)-even though I have little use for most of what Paul wrote.

So I say if Magus wants to call himself a Messianic Jew---Nothing wrong with that and it is an honest position. Just reverting to an earlier time and an earlier belief.

Like, in somewhat the same way, or at least in the same spirit, I can honestly call myself a Christian --------while not believing literally in the Bible.------and considering most of the Bible to be hokum and balderdash.

(Of course I do realize that Magus was one of the few who decided I was NOT a Christian due my somewhat variant personal Christian beliefs.)------

-------as for that part Magus, I think 2 wrongs don't make a right, and that is why I am supporting you in this.

Opera Nut

Taking a Christian minister, ALL of whom believe Jesus is the Messiah, and calling him "Rabbi" and dressing him in a beanie with Hebrew written on it and a Jewish prayer shawl does NOT make him a Rabbi, any more than sitting in a chicken house makes you a chicken.

By this logic, if you sat in a garage, you would be a car.

A person who believes Jesus is the Messiah is a Christian. Period. No matter how many Jewish rituals and symbolic items and Hebrew words used to obscure that fact.

Plain and simple deception.

Magus55

You are right, I am a Christian. I am also a Jew, born of the Abrahamic bloodline.

WinAce

I think this is the first an atheist has used the No True Scottsman fallacy on a Christian

Rational BAC

Jesus was a Jew and a Rabbi.==teacher (I think)

I don't see the problem here.

Early Christians considered themselves to be Jews.

It is that dingaling Paul who screwed things up.

I don't know if Paul was divinely inspired or not, but he sure made a mess of things.

Paul also made possible the Christianity that we have today ==almost 2 billion adherants. --------For good or bad I don't really know. All I do know is that Paul has little or nothing to do with the very simple 4 Gospels with the purported words of Jesus included.

You either believe that Paul was divinely inspired (which I do not) or you believe that Paul screwed up the whole idea of what Jesus was trying to accomplish (which I do)

And I have no problem at all with Magus calling himself a Messianic Jew-------that was what the whole first century of Judeo-Christianity was all about, you know.

Opera Nut

My authority for the "No True Scotsman" argument is from www.messiahtruth.com and www.jewsforjudaism.com.

This means that all other major groups of Jews (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Reconstructionist) reject Messianic Jews as falsely proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah.

If ALL other groups of Jews, who have been around about 8,000 years, reject Messianic Jews, who have only sprung up in the 1970s, and are proven to be funded by Evangelical Christian organizations, and NOT Jewish Charitable organizations, then that tells me that the other 4 groups of Jews do NOT support Messianic Jews.

If Messianic Jews were real Jews, they would be granted status in the National and World Jewish Organizations, such as the Union of American Hebrew Congregations(Reform), United Synagogue of Conservative Congregations(Conservative), or American Centrist Orthodoxy, or the Jewish Reconstructionist Federation (Reconstructionist) . They are not granted that status, nor are they allowed to be married, bar mitzvahed, or eulogized in Jewish synagogues, nor do they have the privilege of being buried in Jewish cemeteries.

Jews have duties to follow their religious laws. The Messianic Jew does not follow the Torah and is not accepted by the other groups, and is actively defended against by counter-missionaries.

I don't see a No True Scotsman fallacy in the actions and arguments of the other four major divisions of Jews.


I will defend the cultural & intellectual accomplishments of Jews as I stomp Christianity in the dust of my intellectual and theological contempt.

Especially Christianity misleadingly cloaked in Hebrew words and symbolic items.