Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SeaKayaker · 01-04-2003, 04:43 PM

Beoram,

Consider that I believe, rightly or wrongly, that without the Bible I cannot have logic. Therefore, I believe that, should I throw out the Bible, I would also throw out logic. I am not willing to throw out logic.

Now, lets discuss whether I am correct or incorrect in that belief. Is there a right and wrong answer to this question?

Mods,

I have read the new forum policies for this forum and have no problem if you would prefer to see this discusson on EoG. I almost began it there, but I thought that I would find better discussion over here.

Soli Deo Gloria,
SeaKayaker

Keith Russell · 01-04-2003, 06:13 PM

SeeKay:

What does the Bible have to do with logic?

The Bible--like any book--makes claims. One of the functions of logic is to allow human beings to evaluate (judge) claims, to discover whether the claims are 'true' (if they correspond to reality) or 'false' (if they do not).

We don't have to 'have faith' that reality is real; that's axiomatic.

But, the claims of the Bible are not axiomatic.

All you accomplish when you claim that logic comes from the Bible, is to redefine logic in meaningless terms.

Keith.

Hugo Holbling · 01-05-2003, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell
...to discover whether the claims are 'true' (if they correspond to reality) or 'false' (if they do not).

Correspondence is not the only theory of truth.

You probably knew anyway, but no harm in saying...

scumble · 01-06-2003, 01:29 AM

Exactly, Kieth, what does the Bible have to do with logic of reason. 'twas the first thing I thought. Does it say somewhere "reason exists" or something of that manner? How would one's capacity to reason disappear once faith in the Bible's veracity is relinquished? I don't think the Bible tells anyone how to reason, does it?

In any case, SeaKayaker, appeal to what Christianity teaches isn't really going to get you anywhere, since one can merely ask "why should the bible be taken as truth?" Even if we assume this, what relation can you make between logic/reason and the Bible? As Keith already said, do we not use reason to assess the claims of the Bible in the first place? Giant grapes and rivers of milk certainly seem unreasonable, to me at least.

Primal · 01-06-2003, 09:05 PM

Quote:

This is what motivated the slaughter. A utopian vision of a 'Republic of Virtue' . A shining light. A beacon. So enticing that it compelled the extermination of enemy, rival and friend alike. Anyone who possibly threatened the realisation of the dream. The Revolution was more important than the lives of 30,000 French.

Not that I'm a defender of the French revolution, but I find it fascinating how people can condemn of French Revolutionary government on the basis of 30,000 deaths. When the monarchies of europe sent many more to their deaths in pointless wars. And the governments of Europe and the US did even more so in ww1. In comparison to such monarchies and democracies the "repiblic of vitue" seems rather modest in what lives it actually took.

Keith Russell · 01-06-2003, 10:20 PM

Hugo:

Yeah, I knew. (But, thanks for the heads-up, nonetheless.)

Now, I don't have to agree with those other theories, just because I know they exist...

Keith.

Hugo Holbling · 01-07-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell
Now, I don't have to agree with those other theories, just because I know they exist...

Heh - of course not (careful with that word "exist"...

). Let's see what you say about correspondence after a dose of Derrida.

*sinister laugh*

Keith Russell · 01-07-2003, 10:03 AM

Hugo:

Which Derrida do you recommend?

(I'll have some 'book money' after February 5th...)

Keith.

Hugo Holbling · 01-07-2003, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Russell
Which Derrida do you recommend?

See my post to you here, Keith. Feel free to PM me as i'll be going over Derrida myself, when i have a moment spare from Rorty's critics.

Keith Russell · 01-07-2003, 01:00 PM

Hugo:

Don't know how I missed your reply on the other thread, thanks for pointing it out to me.

Of Grammatology is the book I looked at the other day, and will probably purchase later this month.

I'll let you know what I think of it, as soon as I've had a chance to read it.

Thanks again,

Keith.

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01-04-2003, 04:43 PM	#31
SeaKayaker Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: VA Posts: 103	Beoram, Consider that I believe, rightly or wrongly, that without the Bible I cannot have logic. Therefore, I believe that, should I throw out the Bible, I would also throw out logic. I am not willing to throw out logic. Now, lets discuss whether I am correct or incorrect in that belief. Is there a right and wrong answer to this question? Mods, I have read the new forum policies for this forum and have no problem if you would prefer to see this discusson on EoG. I almost began it there, but I thought that I would find better discussion over here. Soli Deo Gloria, SeaKayaker

01-04-2003, 06:13 PM	#32
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	SeeKay: What does the Bible have to do with logic? The Bible--like any book--makes claims. One of the functions of logic is to allow human beings to evaluate (judge) claims, to discover whether the claims are 'true' (if they correspond to reality) or 'false' (if they do not). We don't have to 'have faith' that reality is real; that's axiomatic. But, the claims of the Bible are not axiomatic. All you accomplish when you claim that logic comes from the Bible, is to redefine logic in meaningless terms. Keith.

01-06-2003, 01:29 AM	#34
scumble Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 279	Exactly, Kieth, what does the Bible have to do with logic of reason. 'twas the first thing I thought. Does it say somewhere "reason exists" or something of that manner? How would one's capacity to reason disappear once faith in the Bible's veracity is relinquished? I don't think the Bible tells anyone how to reason, does it? In any case, SeaKayaker, appeal to what Christianity teaches isn't really going to get you anywhere, since one can merely ask "why should the bible be taken as truth?" Even if we assume this, what relation can you make between logic/reason and the Bible? As Keith already said, do we not use reason to assess the claims of the Bible in the first place? Giant grapes and rivers of milk certainly seem unreasonable, to me at least.

01-06-2003, 10:20 PM	#36
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Hugo: Yeah, I knew. (But, thanks for the heads-up, nonetheless.) Now, I don't have to agree with those other theories, just because I know they exist... Keith.

01-07-2003, 10:03 AM	#38
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Hugo: Which Derrida do you recommend? (I'll have some 'book money' after February 5th...) Keith.

01-07-2003, 01:00 PM	#40
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Hugo: Don't know how I missed your reply on the other thread, thanks for pointing it out to me. Of Grammatology is the book I looked at the other day, and will probably purchase later this month. I'll let you know what I think of it, as soon as I've had a chance to read it. Thanks again, Keith.

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