Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 10-31-2002, 06:53 AM

From Mr. Hudson

Quote:

I also have my own theory

Yeah, you and two other people apparently

Quote:

that James did not die in Judea, but in Rome where he was taken after appealing to Caesar at his trial in Acts. The later editors wanted to keep James out of Rome and in Jerusalem at all costs. This is why James is transmogrified into Barnabas and Peter. There is a clue in the heavily garbled Clementines that James was Barnabas. In the Recognitions 1.60, we read, "..Barnabas who is also called Matthias.." showing that the editor of Acts was garbling when he had Matthias elected to the "leadership" of the Jerusalem assembly to replace the ficticious Judas. Barnabas = Matthias = James who was elected to replace John the Prophet, not Judas.

We really do need some other forum titles like Totally Unsupported Yet Interesting Conspiracy Theories

This one is based on one sentence of mangled hearsay, and makes the resurrection look like proven fact. Thanks for the help

Rad

CX · 10-31-2002, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drexel:
Well, I'm just getting into this whole biblical criticism thing and maybe I'm confused by the sheer number of Jameses in the New Testament.

I mean, how many were there?

Quite a few. Jacob (Ya'akov; James) is and was an extremely common Hebrew name. There were also several "Jesuses". Only any time it's not THE Jesus the name is transliterated directly from the Hebrew (Yeshu, Yeshu'a etc.) as Joshua. Whenever it's Jesus of Nazareth its transliterated from the the Greek IHSOUS. I've never found a satisfactory reason for this aside from "branding" by the church.

Drexel · 10-31-2002, 07:18 AM

Another thing that confuses me is that Mark has 2 Marys, both mothers of James and Joses.

One is also Jesus' mother who thinks he's out of his mind(3:21), the other one is NOT Jesus' mother, but she is present at the crucifixion (15:40).

Am I getting this right?

Apikorus · 10-31-2002, 08:06 AM

Actually, the frequency of yaaqob is only around 2%, according to the study of Hachlili. She remarks that patriarchal names (abraham, yitzHaq, yaaqob) were rather uncommon during the Roman era. The most popular names seem to be taken from the Hasmonean dynasty: shimon, yehuda, yohanan, yonatan, elazar, and mattityahu for men, and salome/shlomzion for women. 2% is not uncommon by modern American standards (the frequency of Richard is about 1.7%, according to 1990 census data), but the first century Judaean onomasticon was apparently rather limited.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]

Ted Hoffman · 11-01-2002, 02:26 AM

Vork

Quote:

...Yet for the James ossuary she is using a transcription!

How do you know this? Sources please.

Vorkosigan · 11-01-2002, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Intensity:
Vork

How do you know this? Sources please.

She says so in another post, I thought. In any case, her most recent forwarded posts to XTALK, which you should find, are from Oct 31, and posted by Dave Hindley. See also John Lupia's post reposted by David Hindley that same day. The set of Altman's + Lupia's make a very strong statement that the inscription is a forgery.

Our esteemed colleague Rochelle Altman
has carefully gone over the Yardeni transcription. She too has had access to photographs as well. My opinion regarding the erosion of the limestone was based on digital photographs having sufficient resolution for enlargement. The observation of uneven
erosion affecting what appears to be sgraffito
compared to the body of the ossuary was immediate and obvious to me...[goes on to list several types of studies which should have been done]..The fact that none of the aforementioned research and study has been performed leaves this researcher as well many others wondering why? Do not be too quick to summarily dismiss out of hand the many insightful comments made by Rochelle Altman and Nahum Applbaum.

Lupia also says the patina has been "cleaned" in places although he does not say where.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of Toronto...

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan · 11-01-2002, 01:16 PM

<a href="http://listserv.lehigh.edu/lists/Archives/ioudaios-l/" target="_blank">IOUDAIOS-L archives are here</a>. The list home page is <a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/ioudaios/" target="_blank">here</a>. You should read all of Altman's posts. And Lupia's. It seems she is not the only person noticing the problems she has pointed out. Some of the responses to her seem better than the ones on XTALK too, but I have not read them all yet.

Vorkosigan

Liquidrage · 11-01-2002, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CX:


Quite a few. Jacob (Ya'akov; James) is and was an extremely common Hebrew name. There were also several "Jesuses". Only any time it's not THE Jesus the name is transliterated directly from the Hebrew (Yeshu, Yeshu'a etc.) as Joshua. Whenever it's Jesus of Nazareth its transliterated from the the Greek IHSOUS. I've never found a satisfactory reason for this aside from "branding" by the church.

What is troubling is that most people (it seems) do not know this about the name Jesus.

I did not know this until a short time ago.
I was called an idiot that believed in nonsense by a fundy co-worked the other day for suggesting that Jesus was a common name.

My wife didn't know. Nor did a close friend of mine who is also an atheist.

RJS · 11-01-2002, 02:29 PM

dont know if this has been posted yet.

but anyway.

TORONTO, Canada (AP) -- An ancient limestone burial box that may be the oldest archaeological link to Jesus has been damaged in transit from Israel to Canada, Royal Ontario Museum officials said Friday

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/11/01/jesus.inscription.ap/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/11/01/jesus.inscription.ap/index.html</a>

Vorkosigan · 11-03-2002, 01:31 PM

For those of you not on the XTALk list, word was posted there today that Kloppenborg also says there are two hands at work on the inscription.

Vorkosigan

10-31-2002, 08:06 AM	#94
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	Actually, the frequency of yaaqob is only around 2%, according to the study of Hachlili. She remarks that patriarchal names (abraham, yitzHaq, yaaqob) were rather uncommon during the Roman era. The most popular names seem to be taken from the Hasmonean dynasty: shimon, yehuda, yohanan, yonatan, elazar, and mattityahu for men, and salome/shlomzion for women. 2% is not uncommon by modern American standards (the frequency of Richard is about 1.7%, according to 1990 census data), but the first century Judaean onomasticon was apparently rather limited. [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

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10-31-2002, 07:18 AM	#93
Drexel Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: usa Posts: 14	Another thing that confuses me is that Mark has 2 Marys, both mothers of James and Joses. One is also Jesus' mother who thinks he's out of his mind(3:21), the other one is NOT Jesus' mother, but she is present at the crucifixion (15:40). Am I getting this right?

11-01-2002, 01:16 PM	#97
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	<a href="http://listserv.lehigh.edu/lists/Archives/ioudaios-l/" target="_blank">IOUDAIOS-L archives are here</a>. The list home page is <a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/ioudaios/" target="_blank">here</a>. You should read all of Altman's posts. And Lupia's. It seems she is not the only person noticing the problems she has pointed out. Some of the responses to her seem better than the ones on XTALK too, but I have not read them all yet. Vorkosigan

11-01-2002, 02:29 PM	#99
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	dont know if this has been posted yet. but anyway. TORONTO, Canada (AP) -- An ancient limestone burial box that may be the oldest archaeological link to Jesus has been damaged in transit from Israel to Canada, Royal Ontario Museum officials said Friday <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/11/01/jesus.inscription.ap/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/11/01/jesus.inscription.ap/index.html</a>

11-03-2002, 01:31 PM	#100
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	For those of you not on the XTALk list, word was posted there today that Kloppenborg also says there are two hands at work on the inscription. Vorkosigan

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