auto-da-fe

I could not explain any, but that doesn't mean that there are none in and of itself.

I only wanted an opinion on wether or not you agree that there can be exclusionary practices that are not neccassarily immoral or even wrong at all. I dind't mean to draw conclusions form your posts that were incorrect, but a definite position helped me to pose my question. I just think that this prom has maybe been blown way out of proportion, and at least some going have absolutly nothing against blacks and went only because there friends were.

Do you think it is at all posible that the ones doing most of the complaining about stereotypes and labels are the ones who attatch those labels more often? What I mean is, do you think it is at all possible that the white students, at least some of them, who went to this prom only gave the race issue a very quick thought, and then it turned into any normal prom were they worried more about what they wore. Then the media and the people who feel they were slighted are the ones who passed judgement on them and labeled them, all the while dcrying there actions? I agree that the intentions for this prom were more than likely less than honorable, but I just want to know if you think what I am saying is at all possible.

brighid

You are correct, but I do think it speaks to the issue that it is difficult to come up with any reasonable explanation why these students would desire things as they did. I had an equally difficult time answering my own question.

Is it possible that those who employ the stereotypes most often are the ones complaining? Sure, it is within the realm of possibility, but it doesn't seem to be the case IMO. I have read many diverse opinions (for, against, liberal, conservative, white, black) and I don't see it.

It is certainly possible that some attending didn't give race but a passing thought, but it seems unlikely that those organizing a "whites" only prom gave it the same cursory pass over. It seems it is the pivotal reason for taking this action. I don't feel that all the students chosing to attend this exclusive prom are racist. That would be ridiculous, but I do think that those who organized it appear to have racist motivations.

I don't hold your opinion that the press has blown this way out of proportion. It got wide media coverage because it seems to be an abberation, even for the slow to change, traditional South. Does the press distort things and blow things out of proportion? Yes. Do we have all the facts in this case? I would say no. Do we have enough to make a reasonable judgment? Yes, imo anyway. It simply goes to my point that all cases deserved to be judged separately. The press is not infallible and things should be questioned (as is the nature of skepticism), but that does not mean that previous bad reporting equates to bad reporting in this or any case ... wouldn't you agree?

Brighid

Edited to add: Although I do agree with you about the possibilities of this given (or any given) situation, I think it is important to focus on what we know and can know from this situation.

auto-da-fe

I would agree, I only wonder sometimes why the only kind of racism that we ever hear about in the media is White Vs. XXXX. Usually white vs. blacks. I know from experience that "reverse" racisim happens probably as much, and in some cases more so (btw the term reverse racism is patently stupid). I realize that there is a longer history of white vs. black than there is of the opposite, but at some point we have to stop using the past as a crutch, and all of us need to come together and agree that a) any kind of racism is stupid as there are no proven genetic differences between one "race" and another (although the term "race" is misleading because we are all the same race), and that b) sometimes life just isn't fair, and it doesn't mean someone is trying to oppress you.

brighid

I don't think the media does a good job at portraying society, but more often then not minorities (whether they be black, female, Arab, immigrant, etc.) aren't portrayed very well. The attention that white on black racism gets is not very harsh imo, on a whole any way. There are instances where things just get blown out of proportion by both, or either side of this issue and that is just unfortunate.

However, the issue of oppression in society and the dynamics of racism don't get enough attention IMO ... constructive attention that is. I don't think that every instance where something happens to a minority by a white individual is racism. I think those who cry it just to shut people up, or to blow the horn to divert attention are ignorant and should be ignored. They are not representative of the millions of other people who very often bare the sting of prejudice and oppression in relative silence. The subtlty of today's racism makes it more difficult to pin down and in certain ways it makes it more insidious.

Again, we should judge each circumstance on the merits of that case and not allow our attentions to be diverted by circular reasoning, attention grabbing, or unreasonable and prejudicial views that serve only to obfuscate the truth and provide no solution to the problem of racism in this country.

IMO, the type of behavior exhibited by those who oragnized this whites only event is a digression from the fact that we are all human and more then just male, female, black, white, gay, straight, etc. Although certain cases allow for an even warrant segregation of people into groups of similar interests, I find this case not to fall within those guidelines. The silence on the part of those organizing the event is disturbing. However, if they wish to remove themselves from the community and organize peaceably with those who think like them I will not be against them. That is their right, but that does not mean they do not deserve the social chastisement they recieved. Racist, sexist, elitist and other prejudicial attitudes and the hatred they breed should be shunned by reasonable individuals desiring a moral and healthy communal environment.

Brighid

auto-da-fe

very well said.

the underlying problem is not being helped by the likes of jesse jackson or al sharpton, or any of the other leaders who use racism as a tool for extortion. imo racism today most certainly does exist, and exists in every culture. the blacks are not immune to racism against whites any more than the opposite is true. i find distasteful though people who use racism as a crutch and for instance blame it on their lose of a job, rather than their own incompetencies.

in order for america, and indeed humanity, to move past racism, we will first have to admit that racism is a part of every culture, instead of the stigma that it is only a problem for the whites. Further, and I know this may be very controversial (not like that has ever stopped me before), I think we need to agree to start with a new slate and let the past be. concepts like reperations serve no purpose than to divide further an already strained relationship between blacks and whites. every time i hear jesse jackson stand up for a black person who is obviously in the wrong, only because they are black, and trying to alleviate their responsibility and pass it on to society as a whole, it makes me cringe.

and in order for frank, constructive conversations to occur about this subject, such people as jesse jackson, and on the other side people like david duke, need to be wholly ignored and labeled as the idiots they truly are.

brighid

Thank you for the kind compliment.

I think that sometimes Mr. Jackson and Mr. Sharpton are too quick to play the race card. It is very unfortunate and often times I am disappointed with both those men. However, they do not speak for the whole (or even the majority) of the black community. They do some good works and that should not be ignored, but I do think they have (at times) caused more harm then good. The entire black, American culture shouldn't be held hostage, or accountable for the likes of these men or others far worse like Minister Farrakhan.

No culture is immune to racism. It does indeed exist in every culture, but the US has a unique historical development with regard to "white" and "black" culture. If you get a chance I would recommend checking out the PBS Series "Race: the Power of Illusion" if you are interested in discovering that historical development.

Unfortunately, regardless of race, gender, etc. people are going to find others to blame for their failures. This is human nature after all. However, I think white America often feels that racism really isn't as bad as it is for many people. There is a dynamic to racism that is difficult to describe that one must experience to truly understand. It's sort of like attempting to get a man to understand the full scope of pregnancy and labor through words alone. It is nigh impossible.

I often hear the retort from white folks when black folks complain about some unfair treatment being that "it's all in their heads", or "he must have been incompetent" ... without actually having the facts to judge the accuracy of those statements. As members of the same community I think we should not react, or dismiss things so quickly.

It's like the time I started a new job and the day after I put out the picture of myself and my biracial son (in an all white office) I was "let go" due to my incompetence. I had been on the job 3 days and was offered no training (as I was told would happen) because the trainer was out of town, but I should see what I could pick up through observation. I wouldn't be "allowed" to do any other work until I could become familiar with the product line. Every explanation my boss gave me as to why I was being fired I met with reasonable criticism. She would say, Yes ... you are right ... but .... So, although I can never be sure if racism really motivated that decision I feel reasonably sure from the negative reaction I got from office members that afternoon that something was amiss (startled looks, suddenly frosty behavior when all were previously friendly and helpful, or ... Oh ... that's YOUR child ... and that look ...) Ultimately, it got summed up to "I would just not FIT IN."



I don't think the stigma is only for whites but as American society has been (and continues to be) dominated by "whiteness" and we have a history of even determining citizenship, voting rights, etc. by one's whiteness ... this equation is a uniquely American, white vs. black problem.

I disagree that we need to start over and wipe the slate clean. I think the past needs to be acknowledged, discussed, addressed, learned from and full fleshed out so the wounds of those harmed by it can heal. By gones should be by gones, but when the festering sores and attitudes remain those things cannot be overcome unless they are addressed and eradicated.

Reparations are an entirely different discussion and if you would like to address that I suggest opening another thread.

I cringe when he does so as well, but again I hope you do not see Jesse Jackson as representative of the black community, culture or attitudes. He represents a segment of those things, and I would even say a small segment. The man, imo is a media whore and he has fallen so far from the days when he walked with Martin Luther King, Jr.

If you haven't seen it I would recommend renting and viewing, "Barbershop". It engages in an interesting discussion about reparations, Jesse Jackson, etc. It is a funny movie in any respect and worth the $3.99 at Blockbuster or on Pay Per View.

Brighid

auto-da-fe

am i considered racist if i don't prefer certain things about the black culture? maybe the cuisine, or the movies, or the music or whatever. I know logically I am not, but in reality often times I am, simply because I don't like the movies that are done in the black culture (whatever it may be). Barbershop is a good example. I can in no way identify with them, and don't understand a lot of their humor. the trilogy "Friday" is another good example. I can laugh at certain points, but there are other points I don't get. So consequently, I don't really like the movie(s). This is viewed by some to mean that I am racist. granted this may be a little bit of an extreme example (someone calling me racist because I don't like a movie) but you get the point.

My idea about the past, and how yes it does have some relevance to the present, but we need to move past it, is because there will never be any frank discussions about it. Your ideas about discussing the past so as to help healing is very appealing, but I am afraid it is so much pie in the sky. do you have any ideas on the actual technicalities as to how we can acheive your ideas? that is the problem with this subject. it is really easy to say this or that about how to resolve this problem, but the practical applications to it are very formidable. I doubt i could have a discussion about slavery with a desendent (sp?) of a slave, and that person not feel passionate about it, and automatically assume any questions I have about it are racist (or at least are bent that way).

brighid

I don't consider ones taste in movies to racist and certainly not liking "Friday" or "Barbershop" is not one of them. I didn't particularly care for Friday myself, but I enjoyed Barbershop. Black culture is also much richer and more diverse then what passes for pop-culture these days. That pop culture is an aspect of certain segments of black society in the US, but it is not indicative of it. I would encourage people to separate gangsta-rap (which I enjoy) and MTV type depictions of black culture from how they view black people in general.

If you don't like Barbershop or Friday because a bunch of black people are in it and you think black culture is inferior because of negative stereotypes about blacks ... that might be another story.

I am going to assume you are white and I feel safe in concluding that you are male, conservative and over 30. Correct me if I am wrong I honestly don't expect that you would have much frame of reference to relate to urban pop culture. I don't consider that racist. Now, if you allow yourself to view black people at predicated to violence, laziness, ignorance, etc. because media portrayls or stereotypes you grew up I would encourage you to re-examine those ideas and perhaps engage more minority people in conversation, relationships, etc.

I would even invite you to my neighborhood to experience some of the every day minority who don't resemble pop cultural or prejudicial stereotypes.



I agree that we must move beyond the past, but we can't move past it without acknowledging it for all the that it was. I think that is the problem many minorities encounter and become frustrated with. Some white people simply want to forget it happened, ignore how it effects the present and simply "move past" out of comfort sake.

I think there can be frank discussions about race relations, slavery, etc. It will be difficult and certain people probably aren't well suited to discussing things as you point out. The practical applications are formidable. If we learn anything from the civil rights movement and the death, destruction and mayhem it caused we can understand this sort of institutional change is not easy, and it comes at a price. That doesn't mean the endeavor isn't worthy and we should not undertake it because it is difficult.

What are my ideas? Wow ... that might take up more time then I have today to address this issue.

What I would like to see .... equal education for all people, regardless of color, gender, or socio-economic status. Equal education will take us farther in addressing race relations then most other things could hope.

I would like to see the attitudes and judgments about minorities to be removed, or at least abhorred in such a way that people dare not act on, or espouse them. Including such attitudes and misnomers that all homosexuals are pedophiles, single mothers are the root cause of social evil, blacks are lazy and unqualified, etc., etc. I think the BEST way to do that is through accurate media reporting and integrated communities. If children are exposed to diverse cultures and people from the get go they learn that our differences aren't that significant. It's much more difficult to think black people are unqualified because of their blackness when you know many intelligent, educated, wonderful black people and you get to experience the diverse and rich culture of black Americans first hand. You then have a point of reference and don't feel either uncomfortable, or without the ability to relate to them. It's impossible to see homosexuals as moral deviants when you love a friend, family member, etc. who is gay and are forced to see their humanity through that contact. You learn to see through the eyes of the immigrant when you visit a foreign country and sit their dumbfounded because you can't converse in their language (even when you know it, but the dialect in that area is so messed up.) Atheists wouldn't be considered unhappy, and immoral if more people got an opportunity to know atheists without prejudging them ... etc., etc., etc. ....

I think too many people live in insular, little worlds and formulate ideas about people based on narrow, prejudicial stereotypes, or they project their experiences with a few and categorized people into us and "them."

That is just the tip of the iceberg ... but perhaps that is also for another thread and worthy discussion.

Thank you for your frankness. I appreciate the candor.

Brighid

trillian

I think we are missing a major point of WHY a university (or a company for that matter) would have special support structures for minorities exclusively.

In todays society (in the US) there is societal and government pressure to recruit and maintain a certain percentage of minority students/workers. Many times this is mandated by law.

Qualified white students/workers are a dime a dozen(today). The university/company needs to "recruit" larger numbers of minorities with a program that says to them "you are special and we respect you and your culture, please come to our school/company!". In this way they can get the best "picks" of minority populations and keep society and the government content. Publicity of events and groups promoting diversity are a good marketing strategy for recruits and public opinion. It also serves to inspire minorities to acheive with role models of their own culture (at least in theory). Its a basic win-win, at least for now.

Companies/universities cannot afford to be labeled racist or suffer government penalties for non-compliance. It's simple economics. The better they are viewed in terms of the lower socio-economic groups (which are largely minority), the better they fare. After all, this is the "future" majority in a few years.

The support groups on campus and the separate events are all part of the campaign to "get" and "keep" minorities (and sometimes women are included). I have personal experience in this with my previous employer which had policies specific to minorities.

This all seems very different from having a separate HS prom based on race only. What is the intent there? Why separate a HS prom? I think it is a much different case than the university. In this I agree with Brighid: The act may be the same but the intent is different.

In the end, I hope that every culture and race can be celebrated by everyone without inane admission requirements.

trillian

PS: Megadave: I find it difficult to believe that any university had a separate graduation ceremony for minorities. I would think they had something before or after the official school ceremony. Is that what you meant? Otherwise, its clearly racist.

PPS: What did the asians, hispanics, indians etc... do for prom at that school? Or didn't they have any?

brighid

Trillian,

(Moderator Hat On)

This isn't a discussion about Affirmative Action, but if you would like to participate in one there is one in PD. Let's remain on topic.

Brighid

(Moderator Hat Off)