brighid

Atheism does not claim absolute truth and nowhere in the definition of “lacking belief in a god(s)” does atheism denote the need for absolute truth. Only a fool would attempt to assert absolute truth! The wise man or woman is full well aware that “absolute” truth may not exist, but until evidence is provided – compelling evidence for the existence of your particular concept of God (or any other God or Goddess for that matter) it is rational and prudent to make conclusions based upon facts in evidence. If there is no proof either way for the existence of non-existence of any God, why should one BELIEVE with absolute certainty and make claims of absolute certainty as to the truth of their concept?

If, as a theist you want to say, I personally believe that a God or Gods exist – fine! But please, do not attempt to prove your subjective interpretation as FACT, absolute, undeniable, unshakeable REALITY. I want to KNOW, not simply believe in a concept. I believe in the possibility of alien life on other planets. Someday, hopefully within my life time science will be able to prove the factual existence of alien life forms. But I am not going to go around saying – There ARE aliens out there and then formulate my entire world-view based upon this concept. There is stronger evidence for the likelihood of alien life forms on one of the billions of planetary systems than there is for the existence of the Christian concept of God.

So, please repeat the following statement until it sinks in and gels within your gray matter – Atheism is ONLY (repeat only with emphasis) a lack of belief in gods – nothing more and nothing less! Now again … and again … and again… ad nauseum if necessary!
And to your question what follows for the atheist – an world of nearly limitless possibilities that aren’t restricted by the ridiculous and offensively restrictive notions theism demands one must adhere to when defining this world and the universe beyond. Our possibilities are endless!


Brighid

WJ

hybrid!

Exactly! You don't know; you believe. Otherwise, you'd be an agnostic. You've made a choice.

I welcome correction.

walrus

brighid

Let’s see if I can make this clearer: there is no evidence for one to know that any real God exists within all of the religious systems available to us. Therefore I can only make conclusions based upon what I know. I know of no evidence that a God(s) or Godess(es) exist. If, at some point in my life time compelling evidence is shown to prove the factual existence of a God(s) or Goddesses then I will have to reevaluate my conclusions based upon facts in evidence. Until then, I lack the belief in Gods and/or Goddesses based upon my inability to KNOW due to lack of credible evidence - hence atheism. And although the possibilities of this universe are practically limitless AND I can conceive of the possibility that some entity, that may or may not be a God, etc. could possibly exist, the fact that I can imagine something does not make it real, or even probable. As an atheist I am open to the possibility of the unknown becoming known but until I can KNOW and not just BELIEVE, this concept (as the concept of all other non-existent, mythical creatures living within the creative subconscious mind of all mentally functional human beings) that belief is nothing more than fantasy and irrelevant to the construction of a real and factual view of what IS. Outside of poetic and fictional expression I find no use for believing in leprechauns, fairies, Goddesses, Gods, or all other fantastical concepts my mind, or any mind can create. They aren’t real and to base my entire belief system and interact with the world based upon these fictional beings is quite ridiculous.

Finally, the lack of evidence for the existence of such beings and specifically those beings alleged to be Gods and Goddesses leads to the conclusion that they do not exist. I don’t believe in these entities because I cannot know them. Until I can KNOW them I will lack a belief in them – no agnosticism – no contortions – pure and simple atheism.


Brighid

WJ

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm missing the obvious, but your explaination (thank you) is really agnosticism, not atheism.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

theist=belief in God
atheist= belief in a non-existent God (or belief that God doesn't exist)
agnostic= suspended belief

(?)

Walrus

jj

You can redefine words all you like, but an atheist is anyone who doesn't believe in a god.

Your insistance that atheists must "believe" is insulting to most of them, and seems to me a cheap attempt to call atheism "just another belief system". I've met people in the past who want to argue that science is 'another belief system' too, but you konw, when you drop that rock, it hits your toe. When you pray and drop the rock . . .

It still hits your toe. Thud.

WJ

jj!

Correct! You said;

"You can redefine words all you like, but an atheist is anyone who doesn't believe in a god."

You used the word "believe". I've proved my point.

Thanks

(?)

Walrus

Darwin's Finch

WJ: "You used the word "believe". I've proved my point."

Oh, for Christ's sake! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Mageth

As an Atheist, I prefer to say I lack a belief in god(s).

There, I just disproved your point.

Or maybe not; I used the word "belief!"

Gee, this form of argumentation is easy. Use silly semantics to prove your point or disprove your opponent's point.

Mageth

Darwin's Finch...

You used the word "Christ!" Therefore you must believe in Christ! Ha!

free12thinker

Let me try and break down the difference between atheists and agnostics for you.

Hypothetical - Two people stand in front of me, waiting for me to tell them why I'm scared. One's an atheist (JJ) and one's and Agnostic (AA). Watch the difference in responses.

Me-Oh my gosh, I just saw God. He just spoke to me. He's in the other room.
JJ-I'd like to see him.
AA-Yeah..me too.

We walk into the room, but there is nothing there. No being or any form of existential being. I say..

Me-He was here. I swear
JJ-Yeah right. There's no such thing. I don't believe such a deity exists, as I've never seen one. This guy's seeing things.
AA-I believe he could've seen one.
JJ-Then where is it?
Me-He was here.
AA-I believe you. I've never seen one, but I've always believed that something like that could happen.
JJ-That's fine. But I require proof to have belief.
AA-I don't know. There could be some other being or form. I just don't know. Both of you could be right.

What's the difference in thought between AA (the agnostic) and JJ (the atheist)? If you can answer successfully, you'll walk away from here with a little dignity. We like debates, we like talking about philosophies and ideas, morals and ethics..but not with someone who attempts to label us or treat us as theists or non-theists. That's a big generality.

[ April 24, 2002: Message edited by: free12thinker ]</p>