ex-preacher

You seem to spend most of your post (and the last few) arguing that there is no secular analogy for that "conversion feelin." Yet, here you have given us a perfect analogy.

<strong> Billions of people have managed to work up such emotions about their God. For a Christian, how do you explain the intense emotional conversion experiences of Muslims, Hindus, spiritists, Mormons, pagans, Baal worshippers, etc.?

<strong> I know (or least hope) that you don't mean to be condescending, but your comments are quite patronizing. You are acting as if none of us were "truly converted" so we can't possibly have felt what you felt. We were and we did. Then we realized it was not true. Deal with it.

<strong> What a load. This is standard Christian propaganda. There have been so many Christians who assumed, upon my deconversion, that I only wanted to engage in some immoral activity. I was happily married for 15 years as a Christian and have been happily married for 3 years as an atheist (all with the same woman). My wife, who is still a Christian, has commented that our last three years have been the best.

Since becoming an atheist, I have done the following:
-resigned my part-time job as a minister
-resigned my $50,000 a year + benefits assistant professorship due to conscience) I'm now a starving student)
- risked losing my family
- alinenated almost every extended family member and close friend I've ever had
-donated my bone marrow to save a stranger's life
-donated my 1985 Honda Accord to a charity which refurbishes cars for low-income folks
-joined the Unitarian Universalist fellowship (where I now serve on the board)
-have given to charities such as Red Cross
-marched in my first MLK day parade

I consider myself a more moral person than I was as a Christian. I am more aware of my impact on the environment. I am much more accepting of people regardless of their religion or sexual orientation. I am more sickened by cruelty and violence (including that in the Bible) than I was as a Christian.


<strong> With all due respect, your attitude is wearing thin. You don't know what any of us has felt or is feeling. Your smug Christianity has you convinced that we can't possibly understand your conversion yet you understand all about us. What a hypocrite.

<strong> Here we go again. YES, LUVLUV, I WAS REALLY CONVERTED. I HAD ALL THOSE WARM, FUZZY, HAPPY FEELINGS. Unlike some others, I was not giddily happy upon my deconversion. I had felt emotionally sick at my stomach for about a year and when I deconverted it felt like I had thrown up. I was depressed and almost suicidal. Like CS Lewis, I felt as if I had been dragged, kicking and screaming - only in my case, my intellect dragged me away from Christianity. I discovered joy and meaning slowly as an atheist. After all I had been convinced that life without God was meaningless and hopeless. I slowly discovered that life did still have meaning. Helpful book - Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning." Frankl, a concentration camp survivor found that life has the meaning we give to it. Now I am much more contented and at peace emotionally and intellectually than I ever was as a Christian (except maybe for when I was about 6 years old - right before I found out about Santa).

Kassiana

I figured Luv would do anything to keep from admitting we were really converted and really believed in Jesus and all that, and sure enough, he did. What a maroon. Unless Luv was there when we were converted and believing, he can't know if we were true Christians or not. Insulting us for "choosing to disbelieve so you can sin, you horrid, morals-less non-Christians," however, is uncalled for. That is really nasty and hateful, Luv, no matter what you may believe about what you said.

Luv:
I can also see how coming out from under the constraints of Christian doctrine about obedience and hell and the like could provide a liberating experience: I imagine it would be fun to be free from traditional morality; it would be like being a kid in a candy store. Make no mistake, I would be very "giddy" if the proscriptions on my sex life and my obligations to God were suddenly lifted off, but it would be more of what Christians describe as a "fleshy" joy: a joy not necessarily in having discovered the truth, but out of getting out of my obligations and constraints.

ExPreacher:
What a load. This is standard Christian propaganda. There have been so many Christians who assumed, upon my deconversion, that I only wanted to engage in some immoral activity.

Kass:
Really. Me too. Funny, before I deconverted I'd only been sexually intimate with my husband, and now that I've deconverted I've...only been intimate with my husband. Before I deconverted I celebrated holidays and God and after I've deconverted I've...celebrated my holidays and my Gods. Before I deconverted I didn't steal, after deconversion I don't steal.

And who are all these people who are just overjoyed to stop being Christian? I was frightened, angry, and lost when my mind finally said to my emotions, "You know, you can't call yourself a Christian and be honest with yourself any more." I suffered from self-doubt and often cried over the fact that I could no longer believe that (e.g.) the Bethlehem story was literally true when I so wanted it to be. Sure, once I found the Gods, I was overjoyed to be with them, but that doesn't negate the fact that my deconversion was exceedingly unpleasant. Sure I think my deconversion was for the best, but it hurt like hell.

Anyone who thinks that I wasn't a Christian and didn't hurt from deconverting believes a lie, whether they say they're a Christian or not.

Hedwig

Three of my attempts at suicide were all within a two year period: 14 to 16. At 14 I was a baptized born-again and by 16 I was well into my process of deconversion. Luvluv, my deconversion was painful and full of depression and despair. I wasn't "happy" about my deconversion at all. It took me many years to get to a place even loosely resembling "happy".

Tercel

In response to the original question of what this site has done for my beliefs:

I was brought up as kind of a averagely liberal Christian. ~2 years ago I went through a time of really questioning everything about my faith. I read everything I could lay my hands on about the truth of Christianity, how well it was evidenced, whether it was rational to believe it etc. Most of what I was reading was fundamentalist literature, and of course despite the best intentions in the world everyone is greatly swayed by what they read a lot of, so I was borderline to turning into a fundamentalist

I was greatly concerned however by the one-sidedness of my reading. Being logical and openminded I wanted to know both sides of the story. So I decided (after being given the link by an atheist poster on another board) to come here and balence up my reading.

I was primarily interested in the Biblical Criticism forum - could the Bible stand up to what could be thrown at it? I was lucky enough to arrive at a time when Nomad and Layman were posting hard-out, so I got to watch them together kick some serious Rodahi and Michael ass. That was somewhat inspiring. I was also interested in whether what the fundamentalist apologists I'd read said actually stood up. Well it didn't... at least not very well. But neither did the atheist's attacks on the Bible. Suprise suprise, neither of the extremists were right, and it seemed to be the moderate-liberal-Christian middle-ground that by far the best accounted for all the facts.

Being somewhat satisfied with my greatly improved understanding of Biblical Criticism (and having seen plenty recommendations to various books that I could go and read at my own leisure), I moved on the the question of did God really exist and could it be proved one way or the other. Of course the Existence of God board was the place for that. In some ways my efforts there have been even more rewarding for my faith. It's demonstrated to me just how many good reasons there are for my belief, and the extent to which I'd have to renounce reason completely if ever I was to reject the existence of God.

However I have been getting increasingly depressed by the wilful ignorance displayed by many on the boards. To reiterate Luvluv:
<strong>Regardless of the strength of an argument, people generally believe what they want to believe. They may consider their beliefs to be only the result of evidence, but if confronted with arguments that they cannot refute, they maintain their stance regardless. People generally interpret argument and data with respect to their biases, rather than form their biases as a result of argument and data. After being on this site, I am more convinced of that than ever... So I am a little disillusioned to find that even those that claim to proportion their belief to evidence actually quite often proportion their belief to their own personal preferences.</strong>
I know I shouldn't judge atheism by the more sickening and insulting biased idiots who claim to defend it... but it is hard when I'm hit with that sort of think continually. Though there are intelligent people around like Jeffery Lowder, Bill, Transwordly Depraved, James Still, Pompous Bastard etc who help in this respect... it's simply a pity they are overwhelmed so often by the 5 year old "religion is evil and any insults we make are therefore justified" hammerheads. As far as "free-thinking" goes, it seems to reach approximately the same level as the fundamentalists. -It seems fundamentalism is a state of mind more than a belief.
[/rant]

Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent, so back on topic...
Being here has really helped my think through my faith and understand many reasons why I am justified in having it. Overall, being here has greatly greatly strengthened my belief.
Thanks guys.

Anunnaki

Right on Tercel! Except for the part about having any evidence,this pretty much sums up the position of the Christians that come through here.

Gurdur

Actually, Tercel, that's a good attitude; and in return, I'll confess I'm always glad to see a good argument from a theist, since I like having my brain-cells stimulated.

Plus, of course, I simply enjoy input from a wide range of differing philosophical directions on topics.

As for myself:
Being on this board, and being part of this community, has done nothing to change any of my core "beliefs" --- or better said, ideas and attitudes --- whatsoever.

However, there have been a few concrete changes in some of my more peripheral attitudes:

• I am now far more intolerant of parody-Nietzscheism, deconstructionist ideologies, fundamentalist Christianity or other fundamentalist politics or religions, and the like
  .
• I am now far more strident in asserting humanism (whether against theist or atheist anti-humanism), and I welcome humanism all the more (whether atheist, agnostic, or religious)
  .
• I now tend to get more and more antsy whenever I hear Americans discuss politics, since it usually degrades into conspiracy theories and preaching (again, both atheists and theists).
  OTOH, I've gotten to know some really great Americans on this board, so on the whole, I'm happy.
  .
• I was personally a hard-line atheist for years before I found this community, and I still am very much a hard-line atheist (though as ever I can understand other positions, and respect many of them); but I love discussing the finer points of theology at times (an odd quirk of mine), and this board is sometimes excellent for that.
  .
• Finally, despite an incredibly bad signal-to-noise ratio at times, I've found a great deal worthwhile on this board, and in this community.

My thanks to all those who made it worthwhile.

[ May 20, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

ex-preacher

What a sweet thought! Your being here as strengthened my non-belief and confirmed my suspicions about liberal Christianity. Thank you!

Hobbs

Try imagining something else. Think carefully about your relationship with God, and what it means to you. Now, imagine having to give that up. Imagine slowly dawning to a realization that you have been completely misinterpreting and misunderstanding your experiences. Imagine having to realize that you have to give up your God. Further, imagine having to think about the probable reactions of your family and friends. Doesn't sound all that pleasant, does it? If you can imagine that, then you are imagining what some of us had to go through to get where we are now.

Well, unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way. You see, even though I now realize that God isn't really there, my wife is still here, as is my son, other family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, etc. Getting rid of my obligations to God didn't do anything to get rid of any of my obligations to any real people in my life. They're all still here, my actions still affect them, and they will still hold me responsible for how my actions affect them. Besides all that, I still do care about them and wouldn't want to hurt them anyway.

So, I kind of doubt that you have accurately characterized your likely reaction if you ever do realize that your god isn't really there (at least not anywhere outside of your mind). But, if that really is the sort of reaction you would have, then I guess you are just revealing what a shallow person you really are. (I doubt you're really that shallow, though.)

Proxima Centauri

Some Christians seem to change their views after reading atheist websites.
Below is a quotation from Steven Locks Its accessible at:
<a href="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html" target="_blank">http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/seek.html</a>
'I'm also aware of xtians who became atheists after reading material on the Internet, so often they do get a surprise when they walk into the floodgates of freethought - but not always (I'm not that crass!)'

Christians (xtians)sometimes become vulnerable on the Internet. When they are evangalizing they can switch to, 'Praize the Lord!' mode every time we say anything they'd rather ignore.
On the Internet they have to read what we are writing, understand it and try to answer us.

So lets be nice to them and show them gently when they are wrong.



[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: B.Shack ]</p>

butswana

Not changed, just strengthened. I am now more militant and less tolerent.