Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Timetospend · 08-20-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

Hello,

Your claim that we are born atheists seems dubious at best. Atheism is the denial of God(s), or as you said, the absence of assumptions (which I think is false) with regards to theism. If this is the case, then it would seem that atheism at least minimally involves some volition on the part of sentient beings. Babies don't believe in air, oxygen, life, etc. etc. but it would be a strange claim to say that they "lack belief" in these things. More properly, they have not yet formed the cognitive abilities to form beliefs of any kind yet. After all, they do breathe air and are alive.

With regards to the claim that theism is learned. Your claim, it seems to me, commits the genetic fallacy which faults a position based on a supposed flaw in the origin of the claim itself. It may be that theism is learned and that God created us in such a manner to learn about Him through His created order. It doesn't follow that because theism is learned that it is false or that atheism is the default position.

Thanks for your thoughts,

~ Alexander

Not being an atheists, however it is defined, I found this interchange between you and many others to be rather interesting. Frankly, even though I do not agree with their belief system, I have always thought that it took a bit of sophistication and intelligence (and maybe a dose of crankiness) to conjure atheistic arguments...now to find out that infants who only know otherwise how to eat, sleep, cry, etc. are also atheists struck me as being rather funny. Your argument that babies being atheist does not make sense is a good one.

To be fair, I would agree with most of your Calvinistic thinking and that there is sufficient reason for people to believe in some kind of god (Rom 1:18ff per your earlier post), even though they might not be able to focus on the God of the Bible. From an argumentation viewpoint, though, if folks are closed to a position, the possibility of convincing them is miniscule. Some have been practicing countering readily apparent evidence for God for years.

ughaibu · 08-20-2007, 03:05 PM

Weltschmerz and Timetospend: What the fuck is a holy innocent?

Gawen · 08-20-2007, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timetospend

Some have been practicing countering readily apparent evidence for God for years.

Would you be so kind as to show us this readily apparent evidence?

post tenebras lux · 08-21-2007, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

At what point does your god reveal himself to men? Is it as soon as they pop out of their mother, or is it later in their life?

Before your god reveals himself to them, can they be said to have a natural presumption of atheism?

Hello,

I believe that God reveals Himself at all points in life by virtue of our createdness. In other words, I believe that God is evident to everyone.

Thanks,

~ Alexander

Could you kindly explain how your god reveals himself to an hour old newborn baby, whether this baby has been born into a loving family or has already been dumped in the latrine and left to die?

DiamondH · 08-21-2007, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfvixen

Individually, IMO, some atheists presume certain things (i.e. - that there is no god, etc.) On the whole, I think most atheists are atheists because there is no evidence to support the idea that there is a god. I don't presume to know whether there is or isn't a god, I just know that there isn't any evidence to support the existence of a god. Is that an adequate answer?

What I mean to ask, is: Is atheism the default position? It is an epistemological question as opposed to an evidential matter. Does that help?

Thanks,

~ Alexander

By the way, I am a Calvinist so I obviously think that God has revealed Himself generally in such a way that all men know that God exists. It would follow that my position is that atheism is not the default position (and I say this not to start an argument but to state my position so everyone understands where I am coming from).

Feeling it out?

Jump in the waters fine.

If god is keeping you from killing stay there.

DiamondH · 08-21-2007, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

~ Alexander

By the way, I am a Calvinist so I obviously think that God has revealed Himself generally in such a way that all men know that God exists. It would follow that my position is that atheism is not the default position (and I say this not to start an argument but to state my position so everyone understands where I am coming from).

At what point does your god reveal himself to men? Is it as soon as they pop out of their mother, or is it later in their life?

Before your god reveals himself to them, can they be said to have a natural presumption of atheism?

You know when you die.

In the sky

In the great by and by

everettf · 08-21-2007, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

Hello,

Your claim that we are born atheists seems dubious at best. Atheism is the denial of God(s), or as you said, the absence of assumptions (which I think is false) with regards to theism. If this is the case, then it would seem that atheism at least minimally involves some volition on the part of sentient beings. Babies don't believe in air, oxygen, life, etc. etc. but it would be a strange claim to say that they "lack belief" in these things. More properly, they have not yet formed the cognitive abilities to form beliefs of any kind yet. After all, they do breathe air and are alive.

With regards to the claim that theism is learned. Your claim, it seems to me, commits the genetic fallacy which faults a position based on a supposed flaw in the origin of the claim itself. It may be that theism is learned and that God created us in such a manner to learn about Him through His created order. It doesn't follow that because theism is learned that it is false or that atheism is the default position.

Thanks for your thoughts,

~ Alexander

Hold it! I object to the term deny. We don't deny the existents of your or any gods. There is no evidence of gods anywhere. If you have any please present it. Without the bible, scripture or hearsay.

kennethamy · 08-21-2007, 04:21 AM

[QUOTE=Koyaanisqatsi;4714778]

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

A "presumption?" Not sure what you mean.

The "presumption" in "the presumption of atheism" is like the "presumption" in "the presumption of innocence" in English and American law. Just as in the latter, it does not mean that the accused is innocent, it does not mean that atheism is true.

What the presumption of innocence in the law means is that it is up to the prosecution to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the accused is guilty, not up to the accused to prove that he is innocent. In the same way, the presumption of atheism means that it is up to the believer to prove that God exists, it is not up to the atheist to prove that God does not exist.As in the law, the presumption of atheism is a procedural issue. It holds that as a logical matter, it is up to the believer to "go forward" (as in the law). So that if the believer cannot make his case for God, atheism stands as the more reasonable position.

DiamondH · 08-21-2007, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

Quote:

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

Hello,

I believe that God reveals Himself at all points in life by virtue of our createdness. In other words, I believe that God is evident to everyone.

Thanks,

~ Alexander

Could you kindly explain how your god reveals himself to an hour old newborn baby, whether this baby has been born into a loving family or has already been dumped in the latrine and left to die?

If I just knew what this god is.

kennethamy · 08-21-2007, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiamondH

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

Could you kindly explain how your god reveals himself to an hour old newborn baby, whether this baby has been born into a loving family or has already been dumped in the latrine and left to die?

If I just knew what this god is.

That's easy. God is the Supreme Being of the universe: creator, omnipotent, omniscient, all-wise, all-good, etc. etc.

Why do people express this false naivite' when they know very well what people in the West mean when they use the term, "God"? Is it an oblique way of saying that they don't believe that anyone of that description exists? If that is it, why don't they just come out and say so?

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08-20-2007, 03:05 PM	#42
ughaibu Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Japan Posts: 8,492	Weltschmerz and Timetospend: What the fuck is a holy innocent?

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